Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

I'll leave here.
You can make your peculiar funny jokes with someone else.

From torture to this



Boobie you've created a pretty convoluted path---can we kindly get back to something near the topic? Cause now you're skating me toward the question of whether Jebus would approve of torture?

Now before apoplexy sets in consider that torture has clearly been an Xtian practice. Now I'm not saying torture is unique to any particular dogma or religion, but Xtianity is not without the stain of torture.

Now consider torture being used for four general purposes; demeaning a foe, revenge, entertainment, or information gathering/brainwash. How would Jebus approve of each purpose?

I'm in room 101, folks, I'll believe anything big boobie tells me.

Rap

Somehow I missed that bit... where was the funny, again?

That's very said, Walter. You claim to be a Catholic, yet you haven't a clue as to whether Jesus Christ is God or not God in your own religion. If you want to play with the big dogs you're gonna have to get off the porch, son.

I evidently missed the genesis of this ... what's with the "boobie" references, rap?

That's his name for me. He keeps trying to give me a kiss, but I keep slapping his face. He's got a crush on me and likes my tits.

Gosh Walter, you seem to behaving a hard time with a simple question.

No matter what the Christian sect, I don't see how anyone can identify themself as a "Christian," unless they unequivocally believe that Jesus was the Son of God and is their savior.

If you believe he was the son of God, I'm not sure why you would quibble over whether or not he is God, especially since the Christian teaching I grew up with (Luthern) told me he was God, notwithstanding the mystical mumbo jumbo of the Trinity.

Obviously you are free to believe whatever makes sense to you, and I don't think it's a big deal, at all, if your beliefs don't line up perfectly with Christian dogma, but calling oneself a Christian pretty much implies certain beliefs.

I think he was a wiseman; enlightened, but I don't think he was anymore the son of God than you or I. I have no desire to call myself a Christian, but if , for some reason, I did, I think my actual beliefs pretty much make it intellectually dishonest to do so.

Let me translate for you, Walter and explain a wee bit about English grammar; things you probably already know.

[damn, missed a great chance to comma splice]

Naaa, it's a waste of time. You already know this.

Rennie's a boob--a lackey tool only capable of repeating the Rupert Murdock Party line. And Rennie's a sheep f**ker, been seen with the sheriff's girl.

Like you have a problem being intellectually dishonest already.

Now you've gone and done it. Tico's gonna be trying to cut in on his dates.

Did Waterboarding lead to the death of Osama?

waterboarding, water cure, the rack, those handy dandy little CIA-US made generators, ..., none of them wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Art, we could do as you suggest and post links to all sorts of "experts" who supposed our positions, but to what end?

I suspect we can produce an identical number of links, none of which will be so compelling that either of us will concede the other's point.

Here's what we know: Numerous serious people (including Leon Panetta) have concluded that enhanced interrogation methods provided important actionable intelligence.

The argument that the same intelligence could have been obtained with less invasive methods can never be proved.

I don't know if you own a house, but if you do, let's imagine it is invaded by vermin: mice, squirrels, raccoons, etc. There are all sorts of recommended ways to rid your home of such pests, but none of them work perfectly. Let's say in your particular case however, your last resort, poison traps, does the trick, and rids you of the vermin.

Now comes an animal lover who insists that live traps would have worked as
well. As a matter of fact, you tried live traps and it didn't work, but that's not to say that additional attempts would not have worked. In any case you know the poison traps did work.

The next time vermin invade your house are you going to very possibly waste
time with live traps or are you going straight to poison?

The live trap advocate is bound to tell you that you really don't know if you could have gotten rid of the pests without killing them, and he probably would be right.

Killing vermin sucks, but so does a vermin infestation.

Excellent advice, Finn. Finally, you show your christian side. Do you think we could get a translation of this for the Iraqi and Afghan people? It's a little late, but, as the old saying goes, better late than never.

You are absolutely correct. If I go around saying I'm this or I'm that, I honestly believe MY beliefs should line up with the beliefs of that religion or else I am being dishonest.

What does that post have anything to do with Christianity?

My greatest problem with waterboarding is that it dangerously close to torture. Torture; one, used for data collection produces information that is suspect and irreproducible; two, the act itself cheapens the interrogation agency--in this case the USA as a nation.

Rap

HeHeHe boobie, you're the one who brought up religion...what a madodaroll you are.

This is the last gasp of a failed administration. I don't really know about domestic politics, but internationally Obama's played a blinder. People around the world don't think he's a total bastard, and he's got public enemy number 1. That's pretty good going for a president following in the footsteps of George Bush.

Clinton left America in the black, Bush left the economy in recession, in hock to the Chinese, and with it's international reputation in tatters. Torture makes people tell you what you want to hear. Torture secured 'proof' that Al Qaida had active cells in Iraq and was securing chemical/biological weapons from Saddam Hussein.

The only people claiming that torture had any part to play in locating Bin Laden are the people complicit in torture, or their pals in the far right wing propaganda channels. The CIA and Dick Cheney both have dirty hands, and all they've really got to show for it is Iraq. They are desperate to grab some small scraps of credit for a policy, and an administration that is morally bankrupt.

If Bush had been in power now instead of Obama American solidiers would not have been able to catch Bin Laden because they'd be far too busy putting down a rash of Al Qaida inspired insurrection across the globe.

America's valuable ally Hosni Mubarak would get the support he needed to put down the Al Qaida terrorists. There would also be strong support combatting Al Qaida terrorists in Bahrain, Tunisia, The Yemen and Jordan. It wouldn't be all bad though. Gadaffi will have thoroughly completed his transformation from terrorist to trusted friend of America. Having put down Al Qaida terrorists in Libya he will be helping America with advanced interrogation techniques to help win the war against terror, and maybe one day find Bin Laden.

Nor can it be disproved. It is likely true, however, given the relative success rates between torture and traditional investigative techniques.


This is a well-known psychological effect: That people have a preference for the last thing that worked.

Fortunately, (and unfortunately for your argument) torture is not the last thing that worked when searching for bin Laden.