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Proof that consciousness evolved from physical matter?

 
 
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:01 am
@Cyracuz,
"There doesn't exist any observations or evidence to suggest that this happened"

Ok, here is what I think is the evidence. For my entire life I have been seeing and hearing from the point of view of a particular object called my body. Based on my understanding of its structure which I derived from reading the descriptions of those that study medicine, there is a brain in my body the functioning of which is necessary for the existence of my consciousness. I was put out for medical reasons by and anesthesiologist twice and I can attest personally that the injection of the anesthesia caused me to suddenly wake up and all kinds of material events were different - I was in a different room etc. I was told that during that time my body laid on a table and the doctors worked on it. I believe them. So the first question is will you stipulate that if I were to interfere with the arrangement of your brain in certain ways that your consciousness would cease? If you do we go one way if not another.

Assuming you do then we look at the origin of your brain. This is the problem of developmental biology and to establish exactly when you became conscious I cannot say. I certainly have no memory until I was about 4 years old. But I have played with babies and they certainly seem to be conscious. I assume you believe that like you others are conscious. So the chain of material causality reaches back to when I first became conscious. Now you can say that the food and air I breath also contributed materially but I believe it is the arrangement that constitutes the brain and this self sustaining arrangement had its origin sometime after the cells differentiated and the brain formed.

But that structure through sexual reproduction extends from one generation backward and ultimately into the evolution of species and finally to spontaneous generation de nova - life from non-life. Here then is where evolution first started to organize into living things. Subsequently - at some latter point in evolution the nervous systems evolved and consciousness occurred.

The result is an association of the arrangement of matter in certain ways being associated with consciousness. That arrangement has evolved. If I assert that the arrangement causes consciousness and evolution causes the arrangement then evolution causes consciousness.

Admittedly evolution is not a force that can cause but it is shorthand for the random collision of material particles and natural selection.

So to answer your question specifically I need to show that there is evidence that physical processes in unconscious matter resulted in consciousness. I answer it by 1) an association of consciousness with my brain and 2) the evidence of evolutionary biology. Where in that is the problem?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:16 am
@justintruth,
Quote:
Where in that is the problem?


Once again, I make the point that you may have argued for a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition. Furthermore, that which sees the body as "an object" is logically transcendent of "objects".
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 02:29 am
@justintruth,
Quote:
So the first question is will you stipulate that if I were to interfere with the arrangement of your brain in certain ways that your consciousness would cease?


If you were to interfere that could change my consciousness, or end it.

But it seems to me you are focusing on human consciousness. It seems obvious to me that the complexity of our brains is in direct relation to the complexity of our consciousness. It is perhaps the same thing, percieved from one point, perciever from another.

Quote:
Here then is where evolution first started to organize into living things. Subsequently - at some latter point in evolution the nervous systems evolved and consciousness occurred.


I think of it from the other direction. The evolution of the nervous system happened because there was consciousness. Living things are conscious matter. But by consciousness, in this context, I do not mean self awareness. I am thinking more of a dimension of reality that is information, and this information has all these internal relationships with itself.

My understanding of this does not contradict what I know of evolution theory. The only difference is that while you seem to think in terms of physical, dead matter suddenly and randomly becoming alive and evolving to become conscious, I think in terms of consciousness evolving to become physical, and ultimately, self aware.

This guy can give a more detailed and clear explanation of it than I can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s42mrdhKwRA
Doubt doubt
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 05:59 pm
@Cyracuz,
you show a clear lack of knowledge in the biology and physiology department. you can see the steps consciousness took in the brains of animals. many animals have a brain that consists of nothing but what we call a brain stem. they posses no consciousness and only breath or what not instinctively. Some animals have a brain stem and a hypothalamus and they have the brain stems instinct and emotions of the hypothalamus. We are lucky. anyone that knows anything knows that consciousness is only apparent in creatures with a cerebellum. but i guess you spent to much time in grammar class to learn anything useful. Yes its the bad grammar guy again. hey we can be a team. I have useful things to say and you can remember grammatical laws.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 06:03 pm
@Doubt doubt,
I must have hit a nerve with that remark about grammar, because now you seem to be on a vendetta, hunting down my posts to supply your drivel... lol...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 06:16 pm
@Doubt doubt,
Doubt doubt wrote:
you show a clear lack of knowledge in the biology and physiology department. you can see the steps consciousness took in the brains of animals. many animals have a brain that consists of nothing but what we call a brain stem. they posses no consciousness [Emfasis has been added by David.]

and only breath or what not instinctively. Some animals have a brain stem and a hypothalamus and they have the brain stems instinct and emotions of the hypothalamus. We are lucky. anyone that knows anything knows that consciousness is only apparent in creatures with a cerebellum. but i guess you spent to much time in grammar class to learn anything useful. Yes its the bad grammar guy again. hey we can be a team. I have useful things to say and you can remember grammatical laws.
WHICH animals do u allege not to be conscious????





David
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:39 am
@Doubt doubt,
Quote:
anyone that knows anything knows that consciousness is

Laughing
Here are over seven thousand academic papers from people who aren't sure either about "what consciousness is", or whether it can be said to have "a location".
http://consc.net/online

Note that a computing device is a necessary condition for the operation of "the internet". Does that mean that a computer is "the location" of the internet, or that knowledge of the construction of a computer it is sufficient to understand the operation of the internet ?

Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 02:00 am
@fresco,
This guy thinks that quantum physics is wild imagination totally removed from reality, and everything Einsten wrote was wrong... His own words from another post. Don't expect much.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 02:06 am
@Cyracuz,
Point taken !
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 02:09 am
@fresco,
That link was great by the way. Bookmark for a rainy day Smile
0 Replies
 
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 03:26 am
@fresco,
I am confused as to what you mean by my arguing a necessary condition. Rather I was describing the evidence I experience. Evolution is not "necessary". Its validity is tied to Ocham's razor. It is a scientifically established fact not a necessary conclusion like a proof in mathematics. Can you say what it is you meant by saying that I am arguing something necessary but not sufficient?

I agree that it is transcendent of objects. But that does not deny that the contingent natural facts evident for example in any surgical procedure when they administer an anesthetic. Why do football players where helmets? If you answer that simple question you can see the fact of the association that I am describing. There is no genuine scientific debate that the football player's body evolved.

These facts are real and there is plenty of evidence for the claim that that they are true. That does not make them necessarily true. Rather they are contingent facts determined to be true by experiment and observation.
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 04:05 am
@Cyracuz,
You must be careful not to fall into this trap.

Quantum physics is largely an objective theory. The states calculated are associated with an objective existence, or to put it more precisely with objective existences. There may be a collapse in the wave function but there is both before and after the collapse a function that assigns to each point in space and time a state. These states are resolvable to observations made of instruments. There may be only a probability of appearing but that appearing is the appearing of something. Take any quantum mechanics book and delete any reference to objects. Its an interesting experiment. See what you have left!

I suggest you read Claude Shanon's original paper:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf

in information theory. It explains exactly what he means by information and it provides the accepted meaning of information in information physics. Note that for Shanon the meaning of the message is irrelevant. Here is a quote from his paper: "Frequently the messages have meaning, that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem."

I believe in the future of information phyiscs. But I believe that in order to remain an empirical science the meaning of the information provided will necessarily remain part of the picture and the universe will not be reduced to "information". It cannot since the information content is independent of semantics. If the universe is reduced to information then in fact it will not even be a universe. Nor will there be any symbols capturing it. It is hard, no it is impossible, to even conceive of such a thing. What can be done is to do the calculations that show the extent to which statements about the one state of the universe can be distinguished from other statements and how signals carry that information. But to eliminate the meaning of the states?

Why? Because information is only a count of the number of bits required to distinguish the state of a message. It has nothing to do with the meaning of the message and without that meaning no empirical observation will have content.

Take the double slit experiment for example. In the end the meaning of that statement and in particular the meaning of the words "double slit experiment" are necessary to quantum mechanics. Else the universe is devoid of any content and such a theory would be impossible to test in experiment and would be irrelevant to our lives.
0 Replies
 
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 05:22 am
@fresco,
I second the statement that the link was great. I will, though, need a few rainy decades to get through it.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 05:38 am
@justintruth,
You merely state the materialist view of "existence"
The OP seeks "proof" that consciousness evolved from physical matter. It certainly seems contingent that a "physical thinking system" is a necessary requirement for a display of consciousness, but this is no more significant than saying a TV set is a necessary requirement for the display of a televised event. But, David Bohm for example, argued that "consciousness" is a necessary aspect of all "matter", not vice versa, as it is more obviously is the manufacture of TV sets, programmes, or the categorization of the part of the body we call "brain". i.e "matter" does not describe itself...only a conscious observer can do that.
Its chicken and egg !
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 08:57 am
@fresco,
No it is not.

Let's take it step by step. In what sense is consciousness a necessary aspect of all matter? In the sense that any reference to a material event is a reference to an imagined conscious event. So if I go back to the early universe when matter and energy were in equilibrium I go back to a universe which is defined by my consciousness of radiation and matter etc. Now actually it is a negated consciousness so here we have to be careful. But I think that there is good reason to declare the negation a kind of distortion. But that is irrelevant for this as you already are stipulating the necessity so I will also and not argue it further.

But lets assume that such a universe had occurred and that I found myself in it. It was a parallel universe to ours identical in every aspect except one - there were no organic life forms. Let us further assume that I could walk around in this world and my perspective would change just as it does now- now after the planet had formed - I could "turn my head" in the sense that I could perform an act of will that rotated my perspective. I could also move things and set up experiments. However, when I looked down or in a mirror there was no body. Nor were there animals nor plants nor biology of any kind. I was sort of like an invisible non-material being.

In that world consciousness would in fact be necessary for material existence just as it is now. I could still do the physics to test the background radiation and the cosmic abundance of helium and hydrogen and the Hubble constant. But there would be no evidence that matter was necessary for consciousness as there was no evolution of an organic system. I could not undergo anesthesia as there would be no vein to inject it in nor a brain for it to operate in.

But we don't live in that world. In our world there are evolved organic systems and our consciousnesses can be affected by manipulation our brains. Now there is no "proof" that consciousness evolved from matter in a mathematical sense because it is an empirical fact and empirical facts cannot be proved. There is however scientific "proof" in the standard sense of the collection and review of scientific evidence in the facts of the biology of evolution and in the fact of the association of our consciousness with our bodies and with the material causality that occurs.

You say Bohm argues that "consciousness is a necessary aspect of all matter, not vice versa". If by necessary he means logically necessary he is correct. But physical law restricts logic. A ball dropped need not logically fall. But it necessarily does according to physical law. In the same sense consciousness in order to have consciousness one needs to create a certain kind of material body - in fact. And to argue "not vice versa" as you say would be to neglect the evidence of biology. If you want to have a kid what do you do? Why? If there is really no connection why do you have sex in order to have a child?!

I am saying the difference between these worlds is real. I am not just restating materialism. Both worlds are material. Only one has evolution. Just because consciousness is necessary for matter in the sense of the structure of Being does not mean that matter is, or is not, necessary for consciousness in the scientific sense. Only by observation have we in fact determine that it is.

Now you might claim that consciousness exists in all matter in the sense that rocks themselves are conscious. I think that that is a violation of Ocham's razor. I believe that to assume either that others are not conscious really (zombies) or that matter (unorganized into a body) is is to violate if not Ocham's razor at least something similar. The burden of proof would be on you to show that matter itself (unorganized into a body) is conscious, not the other way around.

If Bohm argues the "not vice versa" and he means by "proof" the collection of overwhelming scientific evidence then he is simply wrong. You can see this by asking the simple question of what you must do to have a child.

Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 09:50 am
@justintruth,
Are you trying to explain what is by inventing what is not? The idea of yourself existing as a non-material being borders on theism.

Check out Amit Goswami on consciousness and quantum physics. I'm not going to link it again, as I have done it enough times here on a2k for it to border on spamming. But he explains these things so simply that even an idiot (me) can understand it.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 10:55 am
@justintruth,
Going back? You are not going to "get it" if you think "time" or "matter" are anything more than useful relational constructs with respect to life processes. Materialists assume "matter" is a priori and requires no observer. Alas, this simply doesn't work in delving into "consciousness". And "facts" are socially agreed constructions with respect to consciousness(es) with no independent ontological status of their own. (Latin facere to construct)
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 12:05 pm

did not consciousness evolve from the evolution of biological matter

from the evolution of numbers to the questions of the night sky , the motion of the Earth realtive to the sun , and then to the stars and galaxies , it is apparent that any spritual form had not this knowledge

therefore it was through empirical knowledge and the ability of the brain/mind to dwell upon these questions , the physical matter of the brain/mind

this knowledge could not and was not spritually gained
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 12:26 pm
@north,
Quote:
did not consciousness evolve from the evolution of biological matter


There is no proof or evidence or even indication that this is the case. It is an assumption made by materialists who thought consciousness was too difficult to deal with, so they sought to explain the world without it.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2011 12:35 pm
@Cyracuz,

Quote:
did not consciousness evolve from the evolution of biological matter


Quote:
There is no proof or evidence or even indication that this is the case. It is an assumption made by materialists who thought consciousness was too difficult to deal with, so they sought to explain the world without it.


yet it is the evolution of biological matter , through thousands of years of the writtin word , account of our evolution of thought

from the Sumerians to the present

your answer
 

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