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Disappointed in LOTR III

 
 
Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 11:23 am
Bill W -- my last rereading of the books revealed that the trekking was indeed getting tedious to plow through. It's really on the downside to try and reread a book where one's memory has brought back all the plot turns of the story. When originally reading the books, I found the lanquid parts of the story more fascinating and it added a time element that is naturally lost in the film.

Ebert's major criticism was that Gandalf was too agile for a man of his age! He's a wizard, stupid!

Just shows how critics, professional or amateur can allow their opinion to spew out impusively, revealing that not much thought was put into it.
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BillW
 
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Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:41 pm
On the Gandalf thing, Tolkien goes to great lengths to show him as very feeble and slow minded when he first makes his appearance in the Shire, at the beginning - then he defeats a Balrog, go figure (none of his feats were greater). He also attained more powers after that; becoming a White Wizard. It is pointed out that only the Ents are older -

Sometimes critics should just keep their mouths shut, it shows ignorance.............
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 02:10 pm
Most critics are wannabe filmmakers. Of course, most of us can recognize a bad film when they see it. It takes little talent to pan something and I only appreciate the reviews when they do it with humor. I forgot the name of the film reviewer on The Daily Show but he is a riot.

I was surprised that Elvis Mitchell in his NYT review didn't point out that the blacks were not represented in the film -- he's smart enough to realize it's an English mythology, not an Africa mythology. Of course, he gave the film a rave review so I think he was sufficiently impressed with the love Jackson put into this film. Armchair directors in this case should fold up their chair and go home.
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BillW
 
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Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 04:49 pm
This is from:

Quote:
The Best Films of 2003
Hobbits, dwarves and misanthropes -- our favorite films from the past year.



by Dave McCoy
MSN Entertainment


Quote:
10. "Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King"
The strongest compliment you can give to Peter Jackson and what he achieved is that his final installment of the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy is the weakest ... and yet, it's still one of the best films of the year. That is how high Jackson has set the bar. Yes, there are too many endings and perhaps too many battle scenes, but "King" contains a dozen or so moments that literally make you gasp for air (the chain of fire beacons, Frodo's battle with the spider). We've never seen anything like this trilogy in cinema, and most likely never will again.


I read this in the same vein as all the negative reviews; makes only 10 of the top 10 and gets such a high acclaim as "We've never seen anything like this trilogy in cinema, and most likely never will again". That reads as "Would be Number one; but I hate fantasies".

IMHO, it is just an attempt to diss but can't. BTW, I'm not a movie goer but the only other film in the top 10 that I know is "Bad Santa".

http://entertainment.msn.com/news/article.aspx?news=144439
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BlueMonkey
 
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Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 11:40 pm
Lightwizard I love the way you write. It is fun to read.

As for the movie in question I did not read any of the books and I am kind of glad I did not. I did try to read the first book after I saw the first LOTR but it board me I was hundred pages into the book and they were still in the forest. I just stuck to the movies. I am a reader but if the book does not grab me by the hundreth page or so I put it down or forget to read it and move on.

I have read many books before the movie, Jurassic Park and the Lost World. Both movies were totaly different from the books but, in my opinion, very good movies. This is my view a book is so much different then the movie. There is no way in the world to take everything from the book and put it in the movie. I mean Jurassic Park would have had a very boring monalog by Ian if it ran its lines by the book. Math bla bla bla does numbers bla bla bla. Come on get real.

The mind set of someone who has read a book is that the only thing that is going to be the same is the gist of the story, anything else should be a bonus.

X-Men movies were so different from the comic books but I love them. You have to set them apart. You cannot compare. It is unfair. Nothing can beat what we imagine in our heads as we read the pages before our eyes. Nothing.

I mean I read Jurassic Park five times. I saw the movie more. And before I saw the movie I wanted so bad to see a sleeping Rex but I didn't get it. I wanted him to go through the waterfall like he does in the book but not goanna happen. It was a great movie and a great book. Two different stories about the same thing.

Nit Pickers must have a misrrible life because the way I see it I don't think anything would ever make them happy. They just like making everyone else just as miserable as they are themselves.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 10:14 am
Well I don't know about miserable but certainly dogmatic. For one thing, one has to put some thought into the process of making a movie. If they were to be given that much money and given the responsibility of making a film from the books, I'd not be waiting with baited breath to see the results. This is where Ebert and Roeper did get it right -- the curve of the effectiveness of the films has moved upwards with each film but that curve is very slight. I don't know how anyone could rate the first two films as better than the last film. It's still, as Ebert pointed out and again I agree, one ten hour film (if one considers the Extended Versions) and the whole is superior to the parts. This was watching a film broken up into three parts and released a year apart. The books were released in that way except the publishers got so many letters from readers that the final book was released early.

Of course, the film will also have detractors because the marketing was expertly done and the popularity is undeniable. I can't help feeling that some approach the film with prejudice based on "how can I like something so popular?" It was likely the movie going pedestrians who groaned at the story being carried to its final ending (sans the scouring of the Shire which we've addressed here and I believe the consensus is that the theatrical version wouldn't have survived dwelling on that part of the story).

You are correct that the first book is the slowest going but it has its rewards in establishing the premise where all the action of "The Two Towers" and "The Return of the King" depend. Jackson managed to do the same thing in his visualization but in cinematic terms. The decision to put Shelob in the last part obviously was a wise decision because the majority of critics point this out as a highlight -- it would have been a poor cliff hanger ending for TTT.

My main point is to make a judgement based on the trilogy, not its parts. That would be like making a judgement of the book by only reading one of the books. I'm sure, as Bill W points out, there are those aversed to fantasy, even one as carefully and entertainingly put together as this one. Tolkien wrote the books to entertain, Jackson made a movie to likewise entertain. Part of that entertainment is evoking an emotional response towards the characters and I did not detect any manipulation or false sentimentality.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 10:15 am
(There's sincere sentimentality over an obvious love of the material).
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Dartagnan
 
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Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 11:03 am
Re nit-pickers in general: Some of them seem to derive great pleasure from this activity. I have one friend who's been doing it for years. Case in point: Mention that you liked "Groundhog Day" and he'll say, "Yeah, but did you notice that every time Bill Murray woke up at 6 a.m. to Sonny and Cher on the radio, when he looked out the window it was daylight? How could it be light at that hour in winter!?"

For him, that sums up the movie. Pathetic, but he's absolutely gleeful when he reminds me of this. The fact that the film is fictive and not a documentary doesn't register.
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BillW
 
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Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 12:29 pm
Smile
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 02:21 pm
He was expecting the actor to wake up in a dark frame? Actually, because of the reflection off the snow, my experience has been that it gets lighter much earlier and darker much later.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 02:26 pm
And just be happy a professional made the film instead of some amateur. However, as Kurosawa hath said, a great director can't make a great movie out of a second rate script. With the artistic talent, they always seem to make a movie look good even if it has no heart or guts. Not so with LOTR -- it has the polished, aesthetically beautiful professional look and a dramatic core that any movie maker would love to tackle (that is, if they had the gumption like Jackson mustered up to make these films).

I would like to know Jackson personally, the detractors I couldn't care less.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2004 06:58 pm
Tom Nairn:

Quote:
Tolkien’s parade of racial exotica and forged languages meets this bill admirably, if superficially. Viewers find themselves propelled breathlessly across a universe of combative grotesques and scary goblins. These can be brought together only in an over-arching (and endless) War upon Absolute Evil. President Reagan had to make do with the ‘evil empire’ of Brezhnev’s bungling bureaucracy. By contrast, George W. Bush has been granted both ‘Terrorism’ and the return of Tolkien. [..]

[A] key feature of Tolkien-land is that ‘…it should be “high”, purged of the gross’ — in other words, non-sexual. Ethereal Princesses swan about in The Fellowship of the Ring, oozing pedestal-wisdom. But they are without sex-appeal. [..] Morality is all, and character development is superfluous.

In Peter Jackson’s movie it is replaced by mind-numbing, non-stop action, as one wave of ogres follows another into perdition. To please children-of-all-ages, stereotypes must be unchallengeable, and adulthood is ceaselessly stunned by special effects. One emerges from beguilement blinking, and feeling it’s a terribly long way to Mordor (the equivalent of the Battle of Berlin, where Hitler/bin Laden must meet his doom).


K.A. Dilday:

Quote:
When I look at the Lord of the Rings as the fable its author, J.R.R. Tolkien, intended it to be, I see a world clearly divided into races and regions of leader and followers, I see Calvinist pre-determinism and I see the vindication and veneration of empire unfolding in frame after frame. [..]

Tolkien’s physical descriptions are spare and therefore liberating for a director, yet Peter Jackson has cast the film according to codes of East vs West and black vs white. The evil creatures have darker skin and flat broad features, some wear turbans, others ride atop elephants in flat gazebos reminiscent of those that carried Indian maharajas. [..]

[The] conflict in the human heart, is barely audible in Lord of the Rings, either in film or on paper. Character development is sparse and the only conflict seems to be with one’s destiny. [O]f the enemy’s struggles or motives we know nothing save that Sauron wants dominion over all. Do the Orcs follow him for love of the same? Money seems to figure little in Middle Earth. We hear only of power, of bending people to their will. The Orcs seem to be motivated primarily by a desire to eat their enemy. For all we know the realm of Mordor is barren, driving them out to seek food and fertile land. Tolkien and Jackson give us little to interpret.


Both these articles are on openDemocracy.net. Mind you, despite the clever soundbites above, neither is very good. So thank me for kindling the ingenious bits for you. There is also a third article, in response to Dilday, which passionately defends the movies, by Douglas Murray. I haven't read that one.

The real attraction here, however, is the Forum thread with 12 comments on these articles, almost all by first-time posters, and often admirably elaborate, articulate and humorous. Nairn and Dilday are put in their place with a clever turn of phrase, an original thought and a smile, without any of the holy indignation that defines many of the LOTR-defenders.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:20 am
Two examples of over-interpretation of the books and the crazy notion that a motion picture of an action adventure fantasy wouldn't present the very same thing on the screen. I still feel these viewers are going to the films with prejudice and none have anything particularly erudite to say about the experience. The sophistry is astounding.
If one just absolutely hates fantasy it is the equivalent of hating spinach and then eating it anyway just to show off that they can gag.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 01:45 pm
I also find some of the negative comments to be totally bizarre. One point is that there is no character development where I've seen a number of comments that Jackson spends to much time on character development - in actuality, the first film was the vehicle for character development.

The other comment of concern was about describing the character of the secondary characters (the Southrons and other men of Mordor), the orcs, goblins and hob-goblins. I found them to be true to the book................
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:23 pm
You're right, Bill W -- they read as if they never read the books nor really sat through the trilogy.
Novels always suggest scenes and the action if they are really good novels. The reader's imagination has to be stimulated to fill in the details. Have you ever read a novel where they author gets carried away with detail. Boring. As far as character development there was ten times more in these films than in any previous fantasy epic (or any epic for that matter).

The one thing that always bothers me about critics professional or amateur is when they start directing the movie themselves as if they could do it better. Not.

Just say you don't care for a film, give your reasons and exit. But don't expect that there will not be a rebuttal as if your words are the gospel or the words of the second-hand criticism you're using instead of your own. That "rightious indignation" works both ways.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:32 pm
LW, I've been on discussion threads for the past 4 years or so and I find that much of the same logic is used with these as with critics - make an illogical conclusion, accept it as true and raise other illogical inferences directly from that conclusion..........

Go figure Exclamation
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 08:27 am
The cart before the horse style of criticism.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 11:36 am
I'm not sure why people can't just accept that something, and some don't. This film made the best XX lists for some critics, and not for others. That's just the way it is. People disagree about all kinds of things in life, including entertainment.

Lightwizard, you often say (i could pull this from any number of threads) that you are entitled to your opinion, and will maintain it regardless of others' comments. I absolutely believe in your right to do so. It doesn't seem that you extend that same right and courtesy to others. You started a thread about your enjoyment/ appreciation of this film. plainoldme started a thread about her disappointment in it. As my mother would say "move on".
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 04:35 pm
You should pull where I said I was entitled to my opinion -- in fact, I posted that I was entitled to a rebuttal. Your mother holds no weight with me although I'm sure you follow her instructions religiously.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 04:37 pm
(The dissapointing aspects pointed out that I've read hold about as much water as a sieve -- my last rebuttal was what nihm posted which were some of the sloppiest examples of criticism I've ever encountered and had nothing to do with what plainoldme posted. I suggest to stop being so sensitive).
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