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Saddam Singing Like a Canary- Information on Looted Funds

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:15 pm
Quote:
I remember your support for the WMD issue. I remember you touting the story of the drones that were supposed to be able to launch attacks in 45 minutes. I remember you betting that after the war was over your position would be vindicated in regard to Saddam and 9/11.


Craven- Whew- So much has happened since then. I'll tell you what. When time passes and the truth comes out, if I have been wrong, I will make a public apology.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:19 pm
But my point was that the truth already has come out. If you are still holding out hopes for weaponized WMDs you are waiting in vain.

That's why I challenge it, because to say "we shall see" is to deny that we have seen.

And we have seen. Expecting the casus beli of weaponized WMD that are deployable in 45 minutes to come out is to deny the overwhelming evidence against such a thing.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:30 pm
O.K.- As of this moment, it appears that there are no WMDs in Iraq. I really can't commit to any more, because, I DON'T KNOW!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:34 pm
Walter, is that Paddy's Pig?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:36 pm
In this context the BBC reported this morning:


Quote:
Dr Hope, Britain's second most senior church leader [Archbishop of York], criticised Mr Blair for not listening to opponents during the war in Iraq.

In an interview in the Times, he said: "We still have not found any weapons of mass destruction anywhere.

"Are we likely to find any? Does that alter the view as to whether we really ought to have mounted the invasion or not?

"Undoubtedly a very wicked leader has been removed but there are wicked leaders in other parts of the world."

'Not credible'

Dr Wright [Bishop of Durham] said he did not think Mr Blair and US President George W Bush had the credibility to deal with the problems in Iraq.

"For Bush and Blair to go into Iraq together was like a bunch of white vigilantes going into Brixton to stop drug-dealing," he told the Independent.
quoted from: BBC: Blair under fire from top clergy
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:39 pm
Ok, but do understand that my objection is that proving a negative is frequently impossible.

To remain agnostic on this now might mean to be forever as I don't think there will be much more evidence on this.

If nothing comes of this and people still maintain the "we shall see" it will soon morph into a "we may never know". At which point they will have completely ignored the burden of proof that their support for the WMD issue dictates.

To me a casus beli should not be a "shoot first" and ask later issue. The burden of proof is on those who made the claims. They have been refuted to my satisfaction but because proving a negative might not be possible what can change your position?

The only thing I can think of is time. Because I do not think there will be any deal breakers surfacing.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 03:45 pm
Quote:
Ok, but do understand that my objection is that proving a negative is frequently impossible


I cannot disagree with that. The problem is that John Q. Public really never knows. We can only extrapolate from what we read in the media, which may or may not be slanted, and come to some opinion based on those conclusions.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 04:00 pm
The conflicting accounts are indeed confusing. But I think the media did well. For example, the media explored the 9/11 - Saddam issue in depth and many media outlets bemoaned that the public continued to believe it despite there not being any evidence.

I remember both CNN and other news outlets taking the polls, finding out that the majority of Americans believe the connection and then scratching their heads as to the why.

Here's the first Google result I found when looking for it, it simply talks about the poll numbers: http://www.gopusa.com/news/2003/september/0908_hussein_911.shtml

Bush himself never went to far as to claim the connection you believed.

From Reuters: "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11," Bush told reporters as he met members of Congress on energy legislation.

The media reported all of this. This is why it's frustrating for people to hold out for evidence to those positions. In my opinion these are the types of claims that should require at least a shred of evidence befor the positions are taken.

The Saddam - 9/11 connection was never openly made. It was only implied through wordplay and through a debunked claim (Prague).

The people who believe this do so only on the very subtle implication and disregard direct statements such as that I quoted from Bush.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 04:23 pm
As H.L Mencken said:

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people"

No one ever lost an election that way either...
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 07:57 am
I also never believed that there were any WMD's
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 08:19 am
I actually thought we would find some, and that it would be a significant amount.

I just didn't think that was enough justification on which to invade (after all, North Korea, China, blahblahblah).

I thought it very unusual that invading forces didn't get hit with any.

Especially, you know, with the "drones in 45 minutes" and all.

And as weeks passed and timberlandko kept posting links that said the WMDs were "just around the corner", my initial skepticism was fueled over the casus belli.

After a period of time I realized that it no longer mattered whether we in fact discovered caches of WMDs buried in the desert; if they were under tons of sand, they couldn't have been used against us.

We had been deceived. By our leaders. To go to war. For what, exactly?

None of the various and ever-changing declared reasons, certainly.

We're left still with an unanswered question.

A question that must pain much more deeply than it does me the mothers and fathers, wives and husbands, children, brothers, sisters, and friends of those who died.

Iraqi innocents as well as American and coalition soldiers.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 08:30 am
Good observations, PDiddie

All that, plus the fact that we've added yet one more ingredient to the stew called: You just cannot trust government!

Very, very sad.

But it had to be done.

Saddam had to be punished.

He had insulted Dubya's father.

And who was gonna buy that as the reason for war?

Right?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 10:11 am
Quote:
2:18pm (UK)
US Pulls Military Search Team Out of Iraq

By Mark Sage, PA News, in New York


A 400-member American team, tasked with searching Iraq for military equipment, has been withdrawn, senior US government officials said today.

According to some officials, the withdrawal of the Joint Captured Materiel Exploitation Group was a sign that the Bush administration has lowered its expectations of finding hidden weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

It comes as an independent report by a Washington think tank suggested that US intelligence officials came under political pressure to make a stronger case for war against Iraq.

The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace concluded that intelligence assessments on Iraq were "broken".

Report author Joseph Cirincione told CNN: "We looked at the intelligence assessment process and we have come to the conclusion that it is broken.

"It has now become deeply politicised... it is very likely that intelligence officials were pressured by senior administration officials to conform to the threat assessment of pre-existing policies."

He said a threat assessment published by the Bush administration in the run-up to the war was "strikingly different" from previous analyses.

He said Iraqi weapons programmes were "crippled" by years of sanctions and US air strikes.

"Some of the things we thought were not working, like UN inspections and sanctions, actually were working better than anyone anticipated," he said.

He added that Saddam Hussein was walking a fine line between trying to convince inspectors that he was complying with them while trying to give an impression of military strength to his neighbours.

The report concludes that US government officials "systematically misrepresented" the threat from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to war.

Mr Cirincione, whose think tank opposed the war, called for an independent inquiry into the report's findings.

Meanwhile, a 1,400-strong CIA-led Iraq Survey Group is continuing to hunt Iraq for the weapons of mass destruction which were the justification for war.

Among that team is a group specialised in disposing of chemical and biological weapons, but one group member told the New York Times they were "still waiting for something to dispose of".

The White House and Pentagon hope to find signs of possible weapons dumps among a massive collection of seized Iraqi documents, currently being stored in Qatar.

Many of the papers are still to be translated.

The developments come after new reports yesterday that Iraq may have destroyed its biological weapons as early as 1991.

The Washington Post said investigators had found no evidence of weapons dating back to the first Gulf War, or advanced weapons programmes in the years following that conflict.

It also repeated claims made last year that weapons scientists and engineers told Saddam that programmes were more advanced than they actually were.

Programme managers apparently exaggerated their successes to appease the dictator, or to advance their careers.

Last year, David Kay, who is leading the Iraq Survey Group, said his team had so far made no discoveries of actual weapons of mass destruction.

But he said there was evidence that Saddam's regime was attempting to develop such weapons.

Mr Kay said last month that he may leave his post earlier than was first expected.

Intelligence officials insist that the search for weapons will go on.

Stuart Cohen, the vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council said in an interview on Tuesday: "We worry about what may have happened to those weapons.

"Theories abound as to what may have happened," he told ABC.

He added: "It is too soon to close the books on this case."


Just wondering, why they didn't believe the "singing canary". :wink:

Or what he sung. :wink:

Or if ... :wink:
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2004 08:00 am
Obviously, Saddam is not giving much information , but he seems to be enjoying the debate - at least that's what Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said last Thursday

Saddam 'enjoying' interrogation
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2004 08:15 am
He's not talking much about the money either. There was a report on NPR this morning that estimated he had stolen at least 10 billion US, and investigators had found less than half of it.
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