3
   

How do "Gravitons" interact with Space ?

 
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2011 06:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

... I honestly appreciate your effort to explain the maths involved in a more tangible way.............
.......Once more I thank you for your insights !
Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE

Thank you - your courtesy is appreciated. The briefest possible non-mathematical addendum I can come up with consists of
(i) starting by reminding you that the old fox, Socrates, had very good reason for invariably starting his dialogues by "let us first define our terms"; and
(ii) noting that only the very greatest mathematicians and writers can create new terms in their own spheres, but most of the rest of us have to observe definitions of terms as we find them; it saves time and aggravation, as Contrex, Fresco, Turing, and I, have tried (with varying degrees of abruptness) to convey to you right here. This poem, for instance, was written by an English mathematician; it's very famous - see if you understand it completely Smile
Quote:
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe
.



Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2011 08:17 pm
@High Seas,
Hi High Seas !
While my English is far from perfect, a common problem to a vast majority of internauts these days, I think my set of questions was sufficiently clear concerning the phenomena observed by astronomers commonly know as gravitational lensing...nevertheless some members deliberately confused the issue which is central to the debate in here.
Therefore in favour of clarity I am obliged to insist on the remark that the problem is not, and never was, about non-compatibility between GR and QM or M Theory, that much is generally publicly known...the problem was rising from there on, that is, to inquire for the hypothetical different explanations that such phenomena could have given there in fact exists for a reasonable long time now direct footage (Photography's) of distant old galaxy's (Quasars ?) which can/could be observed in the sky's mirrored at different points.
And it was from there that it seam naturally legitimate to inquire on how does M Theory, the current dominant paradigm in Cosmology and Theoretical Physics, differently looks at such phenomena like the observed effects of gravitational lensing, if it is the case that it looks at them at all, and if not, the reasons why insofar ?
Given graviton particles were in layman terms the intuitive natural candidates to make a first inquisitive approach upon the subject at hand, the uncivilized displayed hostility against it, makes no sense at all...
Again I appreciate your effort to bring in some clarity were others deliberately brought up noise...it shows, and it makes all the difference in the world !

My best regards> Filipe de Albuquerque
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2011 08:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Personally know no more, but remember listening to Dick Feynman talking about a conversation he heard from Einstein, then at Princeton, concerning an argument with Heisenberg on the brutal reversal of perspective we get when we consider that nature has no obligation to follow our mathematics but instead we must follow nature's if we are to get anywhere. I've no link and don't know when I can post again so hope one of your languages is German as I found this clip of Heisenberg lecturing on physics and philosophy - quoting at length Plato, Democritus, Kant, and others you have studied. Good luck to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwM47nStkOE

Quick edit: just listened to the recording again at paused at the point where Heisenberg refers to a system of Lorenz equations and decides he has to pass them by without commenting because he (Werner Heisenberg!) has not enough mathematics to deal with that stuff. Cheered me up no end Smile

0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2011 09:15 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I will recount the 5 blind men describing an elephant. The first blind man got hold of the tail and said the elephant was like a rope, the next got hold of the trunk and was affirmative it was like a snake, next touched the pointy edge of the tusk and was sure it was like a spear, the next blind man touch the body and declared it was like a brick wall and the last touched one leg and was sure the elephant was like a pillar. Mr. Green
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 07:42 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

... Interpretation of such images depends on purpose. Meaning lies in the eye of the observer, and that meaning will be determined by the current scientific paradigm... Heisenberg..."We never see the universe directly, only the results of our interactions with it" (paraphrase)

The paraphrase is incorrect. Heisenberg's model was much more profound; expressed in the most abstract mathematical terms it doesn't contradict either the later Einstein or Schroedinger. I didn't look very hard to find my recollection of Feynman's lecture, so I'm confident a better text can be found, but this excerpt covers the concept you (I think) are trying to explain - and shows that no "ultimate observer", or god of any sort, need be postulated:
Quote:
“Heisenberg, Born, and Jordan assumed the
electrons inside the atom but made no attempt to
describe their actual orbital motions. Instead,
Heisenberg had built his multiplication rule on
equations that, he argued, involved only
quantities that could be observed in the
laboratory
– primarily frequencies and
intensities of emitted radiation – and, in his
enthusiasm, he had elevated this approach to a
prescription for the formulation of any cogent
theory.


Einstein objected to this:

“But you don’t seriously believe,” Einstein
objected, “that none but observable magnitudes
must go into a physical theory?”

Heisenberg defended himself by claiming this was
Einstein’s method to physics theory:

“Heisenberg attempted to raise Einstein’s
formulation of the special theory of relativity
in his defense. Einstein had excluded such
notions as absolute space and time because they
could not be observed, and had used an
operational definition of the simultaneity of two
events.”

“Muttering that a “good trick should not be tried
twice,” Heisenberg’s recollected Einstein called
such empirical reasoning nonsense.”

Einstein then rebutted what he claimed was
nonsense:

“In reality the very opposite happens," he
[Einstein] declared. “It is the theory that
decides what we observe.”


“Heisenberg recalled suddenly remembering
Einstein’s statement just before writing his
uncertainty paper... Operational definitions of
fundamental concepts subject to quantum mechanics
and the uncertainty relations followed. The
theory [quantum mechanics] did indeed decide what
could or could not be observed, or remembered
.”

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 08:58 am
@talk72000,
Yes, but Heisenberg states it more elegantly! Anyway I found a better link to the same conversation: http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p07c.htm
Quote:
From Heisenberg, Physics and Beyond, Arnold J. Pomerans, trans. (New York: Harper, 1971), p. 63.

Heisenberg: "We cannot observe electron orbits inside the atom...Now, since a good theory must be based on directly observable magnitudes, I thought it more fitting to restrict myself to these, treating them, as it were, as representatives of the electron orbits."

"But you don't seriously believe," Einstein protested, "that none but observable magnitudes must go into a physical theory?"

"Isn't that precisely what you have done with relativity?" I asked in some surprise...

"Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning," Einstein admitted, "but it is nonsense all the same....In reality the very opposite happens. It is the theory which decides what we can observe."
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 10:58 am
@High Seas,
There must be a distinction between the Epistemological problem of knowing which directly depends on observation and consequently as you and Fresco pointed out is ultimately intertwined with the relation built between the observer and that which is being observed, and the Ontological status of the variables implied in such relation at a given point in time...one certainly cannot be without the other...that in turn to where I stand implies the truthfulness of the functions themselves...such interpretation in turn does not imply in any sense any kind of God or transcendental Observer...perspectives are build and validated in relation to each other from inside and not from any outside point of view, and that so far is my understanding upon the subject.

How would any relation Observer/observed be possible in the first place without an actual state of affairs of both agents ?
( that would be like imagining I can make a soup with a sort of, who knows what, maybe carrots, onions and vegy´s...)
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 11:21 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Are you thinking of John Wheeler's "it for bit"? No matter - let me address your epistemological issue directly: if you expect me to improve on Heisenberg, Einstein, Feynman, Schrödinger, and Wheeler, you better not simultaneously expect me to answer your question today. It will take me some more time Smile
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 11:30 am
@High Seas,
I fully appreciate your sense of humour... Wink
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 11:34 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
@JPLosman0711,
...the very sense of internal highly dependent on the elusive concept of self and linear objects is to be questioned here...is the function between two entity´s that turns out to be relevant and not any obscure concept of external or internal...the very object in itself it is the fruit of deeper layers of relation that turn out to be contextually relevant in a specific situation while in other may not...that in turn it is not to say that the status of the object is not valid or true, but simply to say that the set of property´s which are "active" in relation to the observer is contextually dependent from a vast array of other property´s that are negligible or neutral for that specific situation...a function is all about that !


This is a reply that I just posted on the Thread Essence of Freedom that may be of some interest to this context...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 01:11 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
We cannot observe electron orbits inside the atom.


The model of subatomic particles may need adjustment. Using statistics isn't scientic research but gambler's trade.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2011 01:55 pm
@talk72000,
yeah...but no idea of a "God" would in itself alone secure the certainty...Cohesion does not need God !
0 Replies
 
jack G
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 02:07 pm

Gravitons are tachyons with real energy and negative time ordering- they are moving in a negative temporal direction, which means they are moving toward the point they were emitted. They transfer momentum to particles they hit, moving those particles in the same direction... toward the source of the gravitation. Think about it. Gravitation is known to slow time. How? By moving in a negative temporal direction.
0 Replies
 
 

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