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Understanding time and space

 
 
atlas783508760
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 04:37 am
@RexRed,
hello in our country i am major in the international bussiness,so i will be specliaze in it when i go to the US.your website i will make a try .if there some tools can let us talk with each other.may god bless you .
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2011 08:54 am
@RexRed,
Come off it ! Adages might might you feel better, but should not be used as a smoke screen for "thinking". You use words like "truth" and "understanding" without the slightest acknowledgement of their nebulous status. I put it to you that you as the originator of this thread involves you in a responsibility to engage in a discussion of that status rather than take cover behind one-liners.


RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 02:41 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Come off it ! Adages might might you feel better, but should not be used as a smoke screen for "thinking". You use words like "truth" and "understanding" without the slightest acknowledgement of their nebulous status. I put it to you that you as the originator of this thread involves you in a responsibility to engage in a discussion of that status rather than take cover behind one-liners.





We are told that what we see distant objects in the universe through Hubble and they actually are events that happened billions of years ago. How is that so? I am not asking "if" that is so but how? I am not really sure if it is so or not, I simply believe it to be so I'm told because space and time are connected and this is where gravity comes from is if this was not "true" then atomic bombs would not work. There is obviously some "truth" to Einstein's equations.

Yet it all then seems to become distorted like radiation became so intense and obliterated the intent and desire. i.e. Neon and freon, chemistry, how planets form, physics that mold things into perfect spheres and shapes, biology and many forms of life. We are supposed to glean the clues from this as to the message that the physical world is trying to speak through its own medium to us. The absolutes of thought that set the dimensions of reason. Foundations can be built upon reason.

The only way physics and time can speak to us is through its own symbolism and allegory.
Through its vector geometry, three planes converging into single point as composite measurement of all form and space.

pi, spheres, planes, pyramids, cubes, fractals, infinite form and beauty all measurements of what is but a world that isn't a single point that within it holds the dimensions of the universe. Within those dimensions, a single point... A point with no depth, height and width. Where all of existence crawls out of. Each spiraling galaxy has it core and the entire universe has its own abyss into the whirling descent into the unfathomable. We look backward yet see forward.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 03:01 am
@RexRed,
Thank you for responding to my challenge.

Once more, I urge you to consider that "understanding" boils down to "prediction and control". QM points to the fact that there is no independent "physical world". Our models...our equations....our hypotheses are all interactions between human anthropocentric observers with specific cognitive needs, and the elusive realm of "that which appears to be separate from ourselves". When the physicist Richard Feynman was asked to "explain" his "particles travelling backwards in time", he replied to the effect that "all that mattered was such a concept was in agreement with the results". Thus phrases like "we are told that..." are merely the musings of the layman "wondering" at the strange practices of "scientists" who are enmeshed in a complex socio-historical paradigm (Thomas Khun). In other words "independent reality" is a straw man. ( Einstein: "Reality is an illusion albeit a persistent one").
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 08:33 am
@fresco,
1- A non independent Reality works both way´s...you stretch the Anthropocentric bit just as much as others stretch the "Matter" in itself...

2 - It is true that there are forms of relation and comprehension between ourselves and the World, as it is true that they depend in incomplete frames of conceptualization that we create for purposes of description...

3 - Yet you fail to prove that such forms, albeit incomplete and deeply intertwined with our cultural bias are not valid up to an extent, as forms of relation, functions that are not merely descriptive but that ad to the thing our way of perceiving it, although not destroying its "mathematical core"...

3.1 ....say for instance that I can convert a painting, its inner geometrical forms, size, disposition, and the general relation in the picture, into a mathematical axiom, and from there into a music sheet, exactly expressing the same algorithmic processes, the same harmony, or instead that I do it through words...(hope your getting how) yet another form of representation...even admitting that my form is the build factor of a perspective between where I stand towards where the object is...admitting that perspective is already relation between the subject and the object...the truth is that the mathematical process in the function of that relation is valid...how could it not be ? what would be there to relate with in the first place ?

...and this is where you came of track...you cannot suppress everything without suppressing also your own assessment on the matter at hand, your "own" belief that there´s no truth...I truly wish you could see that with more clarity...

All Forms of relation are valid descriptions of a Meta phenomena which constitutes "our" World ! How would the World not be ours ? What other then the sheer bound of "ours" would there be ? An unplugged recollection of bits with no connection ? Dynamics (of relation) is what matters, just as in music...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 08:48 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
...oh, and given Einstein has precisely the one to take the subject, the "observer" into account, I wish you explain what you find wrong in is theory´s...Einstein and Relativity describe forms of relation...
(you should use him into your advantage instead of attacking him...I guess that says all on your "understanding" onto is work...)
...you misinterpret the meaning in his words...
("Illusions" require TRUE Functions)
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 09:42 am
@RexRed,
Hi Rex !...

Light takes time to travel in Space..as it has a specific speed...approximately 299,792,458 meters per second, or 186,282 miles per second...that and the Doppler Effect, the Red shift Effect, accounts for distance and consequently the Time Light takes to reach us on Earth from those far way objects ( now "dead")...Observing distant primordial Galaxy´s, and calculating the speed their are moving away from us the so mentioned Red Shift Effect in the spectrum of light permit us to deduce a point in Time when everything was bound in a single point, the Big Bang instant...thus exactly knowing how long ago the Universe was "born"...The Universe is 13.7 billion years old.

By the way our Sun is eight (light) minutes away...thus you see it as it was just 8 minutes ago...

Hope that can help ! Wink

Quote:
Doppler effect

The Doppler effect (or Doppler shift), named after Austrian physicist Christian Doppler who proposed it in 1842 in Prague, is the change in frequency of a wave for an observer moving relative to the source of the wave. It is commonly heard when a vehicle sounding a siren or horn approaches, passes, and recedes from an observer. The received frequency is higher (compared to the emitted frequency) during the approach, it is identical at the instant of passing by, and it is lower during the recession.

The relative increase in frequency can be explained as follows. When the source of the waves is moving toward the observer, each successive wave crest is emitted from a position closer to the observer than the previous wave. Therefore each wave takes slightly less time to reach the observer than the previous wave. Therefore the time between the arrival of successive wave crests at the observer is reduced, causing an increase in the frequency. While they are traveling, the distance between successive wavefronts is reduced; so the waves "bunch together". Conversely, if the source of waves is moving away from the observer, each wave is emitted from a position farther from the observer than the previous wave, so the arrival time between successive waves is increased, reducing the frequency. The distance between successive wavefronts is increased, so the waves "spread out".

For waves that propagate in a medium, such as sound waves, the velocity of the observer and of the source are relative to the medium in which the waves are transmitted. The total Doppler effect may therefore result from motion of the source, motion of the observer, or motion of the medium. Each of these effects is analyzed separately. For waves which do not require a medium, such as light or gravity in general relativity, only the relative difference in velocity between the observer and the source needs to be considered.

Astronomy

Redshift of spectral lines in the optical spectrum of a supercluster of distant galaxies (right), as compared to that of the Sun (left).

The Doppler effect for electromagnetic waves such as light is of great use in astronomy and results in either a so-called redshift or blue shift. It has been used to measure the speed at which stars and galaxies are approaching or receding from us, that is, the radial velocity. This is used to detect if an apparently single star is, in reality, a close binary and even to measure the rotational speed of stars and galaxies.

The use of the Doppler effect for light in astronomy depends on our knowledge that the spectra of stars are not continuous. They exhibit absorption lines at well defined frequencies that are correlated with the energies required to excite electrons in various elements from one level to another. The Doppler effect is recognizable in the fact that the absorption lines are not always at the frequencies that are obtained from the spectrum of a stationary light source. Since blue light has a higher frequency than red light, the spectral lines of an approaching astronomical light source exhibit a blue shift and those of a receding astronomical light source exhibit a redshift.

Among the nearby stars, the largest radial velocities with respect to the Sun are +308 km/s (BD-15°4041, also known as LHS 52, 81.7 light-years away) and -260 km/s (Woolley 9722, also known as Wolf 1106 and LHS 64, 78.2 light-years away). Positive radial velocity means the star is receding from the Sun, negative that it is approaching.


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 10:02 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
it should read:

"...oh, and given Einstein was precisely the one to take the subject, the "observer" into account..."
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 10:23 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
...and this is where you came of track...you cannot suppress everything without suppressing also your own assessment on the matter at hand, your "own" belief that there´s no truth...I truly wish you could see that with more clarity...


The claim is not made from a lone "me of assessment", it is made as an expression of a well established paradigm which we might loosely call "non-duality".
www.ScienceAndNonduality.com

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 11:40 am
@fresco,
I am not opposing non duality, although explanation upon it is obscure to say the least...I am precisely trying to throw some light into the matter. Functions have true value !
( You just seam to deliberately not want to understand why it is so...)
(I myself am an "adept" of Monism and Taoism)

The "object" in the "Subject" is the FUNCTION it presently serves...just as the "Subject" in the "Object" is relation itself with the Whole...that which is, what you call in layman´s terms, "awareness", or relative measurement if you want, something that in turn also can have many forms of expression, not necessarily humans do...
(I "prefer" the mathematical one...) (...and while it may be that I am referring to the human form of assessing mathematics, there is MATHEMATICS in the World)
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2011 01:51 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
FA, There IS mathematics in the HUMAN world...and, of course, that world is a component of the COSMIC world. But Einstein's E=MC2 told us also about himself, not just about constants of relations in the extrahuman physical universe. You correctly ascribe obscurity to the use of non-dual descriptions of the world. The world is profoundly or inherently contradictory and ambiguous, that is to say obscure--when approached as a symbolically (linguistically or mathematically) grounded--puzzle. But that same world is bright and clear when experienced in prereflectively existential moments.
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2011 10:38 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

FA, There IS mathematics in the HUMAN world...and, of course, that world is a component of the COSMIC world. But Einstein's E=MC2 told us also about himself, not just about constants of relations in the extrahuman physical universe. You correctly ascribe obscurity to the use of non-dual descriptions of the world. The world is profoundly or inherently contradictory and ambiguous, that is to say obscure--when approached as a symbolically (linguistically or mathematically) grounded--puzzle. But that same world is bright and clear when experienced in prereflectively existential moments.


Bright and clear? Hard to find that... Usually obscured, hidden and romantically bound.

zero point field.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 10:00 am
@RexRed,
I guess that depends on the day or my mood. Oops! I don't have moods; I am moods.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 11:26 am
@RexRed,
Google it!
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 03:21 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Does God learn or is the world a completely uneventful place to God?

It would seem that information is the product of humanity. What purpose does an "observer" have but to observe information? To somehow be linked into the hearts and minds of every conscience.

We as humans express ourselves in words and pictures (images) with sounds. We design music and tell stories and then we leave them behind and when we are gone they are called tales. These tales reach through the ages and direct the actions of peoples far removed from their inception.

Then the people who try to make the ambiguous unambiguous thinking that, an all knowing being can be both innocent and wise, a child and a sage, zero and one.

So life becomes the impressions we leave behind.

Why do we struggle so to leave behind a record or gimps into our own psyche? Pyramids built to house our eternal gravedom, all so we can cheat one tick from the clock of time.
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 04:00 pm
If one were to measure a tiny object, the most effective way to measure it is from within itself. To pick a point within the object and measure the object with 3d vector geometry.

But when one measures the object from within itself it is autonomous of the world geometry.

The object can be converted at any point into world coordinates but it still has that initial state it is reckoned from.

So it is with other objects if one were to measure a spiraling galaxy they would most likely pick the center of the galaxy to place a point where space would be measured with vector lines that are drawn from the center point on out to infinity.

Yet galaxies also are part of a larger universe that has its own center point.

So one can measure a galaxy from its own center point out or the galaxy can be measured in reference to the center point of the entire universe.

Then we look outside of our entire physical universe and we measure our universe itself from a single center point with three dimensions, we measure the universe from within itself. So its center point becomes its real world position, size and rotation.

Yet we measure it in relation to itself. The unknown is, where is the place where we put the point and begin to measure the void outside of our universe? And is our universe also measured in relation to the point at the center of the void.

Understanding space and time is much worse a spaghetti monster than I have ever encountered.

It is simply a mathematical conversion to convert coordinates from the object to that of the real world. Yet objects lose their own central focus and they become manipulated and often distorted by real world geometry.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 04:18 pm
@RexRed,
RexRed wrote:

Does God learn or is the world a completely uneventful place to God?

It would seem that information is the product of humanity. What purpose does an "observer" have but to observe information? To somehow be linked into the hearts and minds of every conscience.

We as humans express ourselves in words and pictures (images) with sounds. We design music and tell stories and then we leave them behind and when we are gone they are called tales. These tales reach through the ages and direct the actions of peoples far removed from their inception.

Then the people who try to make the ambiguous unambiguous thinking that, an all knowing being can be both innocent and wise, a child and a sage, zero and one.

So life becomes the impressions we leave behind.

Why do we struggle so to leave behind a record or gimps into our own psyche? Pyramids built to house our eternal gravedom, all so we can cheat one tick from the clock of time.


I can give only my conception of "God" and its not good or very meaningful I ´m afraid, at least in the sense most would expect...no Christian fantasy of ultimate "Good" or "Bad", no heroes nor villains, no "forward" to look for, or out direction to it...its all "in", and its all done already !

"Everythingness", The Whole of Reality...which is beyond Time and Space, beyond questions and answers, once encompassing the after and the before, (à priori) "It" does not learn or evolve or very much has a purpose other then to be itself as a Totality...a Totality which has no "opposition" or "contrast" to it...not even "Nothingness" around it...its a "full place" if you want. (nothingness is nothing or is not, it very much explains itself...in turn a void, space is another thing, it allows movement in it, it has at least that property or function if you will )
now...were was I ? ah !
...we, Humans beings, and others such like throughout the Cosmos, as finite smaller "strings of code" in this big "Program", we are the ones who can afford the pleasurable luxury of progress, purpose, or evolution...not "God" itself, which is already the future to come, and the past, who never was really gone...
...at that light, the purpose of "God", being none in itself, can only be fulfilled by us, which as smaller parts in it, can hope to look forward with expectancy and joy...the great unknown..."our" happiness in this ride, is "his" only possible happiness...our process, the reason why is worth "IT" ("God") to exist...no other...the "big" looks to the "small" with "jealousy"...just like an old man looks to a child in the same way...
(it Continues...)
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2011 12:58 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

RexRed wrote:

Does God learn or is the world a completely uneventful place to God?

It would seem that information is the product of humanity. What purpose does an "observer" have but to observe information? To somehow be linked into the hearts and minds of every conscience.

We as humans express ourselves in words and pictures (images) with sounds. We design music and tell stories and then we leave them behind and when we are gone they are called tales. These tales reach through the ages and direct the actions of peoples far removed from their inception.

Then the people who try to make the ambiguous unambiguous thinking that, an all knowing being can be both innocent and wise, a child and a sage, zero and one.

So life becomes the impressions we leave behind.

Why do we struggle so to leave behind a record or gimps into our own psyche? Pyramids built to house our eternal gravedom, all so we can cheat one tick from the clock of time.


I can give only my conception of "God" and its not good or very meaningful I ´m afraid, at least in the sense most would expect...no Christian fantasy of ultimate "Good" or "Bad", no heroes nor villains, no "forward" to look for, or out direction to it...its all "in", and its all done already !

"Everythingness", The Whole of Reality...which is beyond Time and Space, beyond questions and answers, once encompassing the after and the before, (à priori) "It" does not learn or evolve or very much has a purpose other then to be itself as a Totality...a Totality which has no "opposition" or "contrast" to it...not even "Nothingness" around it...its a "full place" if you want. (nothingness is nothing or is not, it very much explains itself...in turn a void, space is another thing, it allows movement in it, it has at least that property or function if you will )
now...were was I ? ah !
...we, Humans beings, and others such like throughout the Cosmos, as finite smaller "strings of code" in this big "Program", we are the ones who can afford the pleasurable luxury of progress, purpose, or evolution...not "God" itself, which is already the future to come, and the past, who never was really gone...
...at that light, the purpose of "God", being none in itself, can only be fulfilled by us, which as smaller parts in it, can hope to look forward with expectancy and joy...the great unknown..."our" happiness in this ride, is "his" only possible happiness...our process, the reason why is worth "IT" ("God") to exist...no other...the "big" looks to the "small" with "jealousy"...just like an old man looks to a child in the same way...
(it Continues...)



I tend to believe God does learn. That God is reborn and ages with the cosmos and is reborn again and again. An ever flowing circle of time, seasons, rejuvenation and the end being an aeon of regal glory and triumph over time itself.

That it goes from paradise to heaven and back to paradise always exceeding the past ages.

Nothing is static and just as God is silent today, one day the voice of God shall be heard again.

We are reborn when God is reborn. Glory and rebirth. Time is bent back upon itself and it is not linear for it is like a clock of 12 hours where 12:00 is zero also. We raise God up until God can speak to us.

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God." Words are a vehicle for conveying learning.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2011 01:08 am
@RexRed,
Yes I see the interest in your point of view, but would that be "God" ?
One cannot go half way with this matter, "God" must be Everything or nothing at all...a self enclosed Program is my imagery for it...Time and Space reflect our cognitive temporal comprehensive perspective on it...but is n´t the "THING" done and self explained ? I mean to my view unfortunately as a totality "God" is barren...it can "live" only through its "children"...smaller sets, systems, or strings of code like us, which are incomplete...that which is Complete does not ask, wonder, or progresses at all...we are "God´s eyes" !
(Happiness is for us not for "God"...)
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Apr, 2011 05:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Yes I see the interest in your point of view, but would that be "God" ?
One cannot go half way with this matter, "God" must be Everything or nothing at all...a self enclosed Program is my imagery for it...Time and Space reflect our cognitive temporal comprehensive perspective on it...but is n´t the "THING" done and self explained ? I mean to my view unfortunately as a totality "God" is barren...it can "live" only through its "children"...smaller sets, systems, or strings of code like us, which are incomplete...that which is Complete does not ask, wonder, or progresses at all...we are "God´s eyes" !
(Happiness is for us not for "God"...)


We are the creation and God is there creator.
You cannot be your own father or mother.

God is recreated in our knowledge and over time God becomes symbiant to our existence.

There are two "timelines" or beginnings.

There is the beginning of the physical elemental atomic world and the beginning of our consciousness of it.

We became conscious of our world around the time of the building of the pyramids and Stonehenge.

Consciousness is not a given but filter though which the adolescence of our own infancy God is reckoned.

As we grow the filter is perfected and focused into the understanding of diversity and human identity.

What does our existence say about the physical world time and space?

That intelligence survived because it was genetically superior.

Intelligence is the product of time and space.

The first timeline facilitated the second timeline.

When one speculates "in the beginning" one should first ascertain which beginning.

Many things begin but not all beginnings lead to intelligence.

It is as if only when we demonstrate this intelligence do we ever resemble the opposite of what we are. We are static and physical. We do not "create" anything... we make, form and replicate even procreate but we cannot create.

The closest thing to creation that we can do is within the synapse of our minds where ideas occur.

We are the created and one may only argue that we are not created if we did not exist. Existence is creation.

Only the uncreated can create.
 

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