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Animals, Eating Meat and Moral Standing

 
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 09:29 pm
@wayne,
How about more fundamental?

If you can obtain all the necessary nutrients needed for life and health without harming other animals, then doesn't that mean we only do so electively? I understand if you like to eat meat (read: find it desirable), but you nor I have probably had to exist in a real survival situation such that the neccesity of meat comes into play vis-a-vis availability.

A
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wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 09:31 pm
@edgarblythe,
I think you put that quite well, thanks Edgar.
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tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 09:46 pm
Trying to compare the Civilized attitudes of modern man to some belief system of today, is the same as comparing the attitudes of the cave man, who's whole existence relied on his spear and catching and eating of meat. Then saying that they were immoral and should have all become vegetarians
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 09:56 pm
@failures art,
Oh I agree with you. I like to eat meat, even crave it. But I do believe Thoreau got it right when he said vegetable powered muscle seemed to work just fine.
I don't believe, however, that it is an ethical or moral issue. It is, as you say, more practical to envision a sort of vegan world.

The question of our evolution deserves inclusion too.
We are in the process of evolving, in which our omnivorous behavior must play a part. It is, of course, possible we may evolve beyond our desire for meat. We have already evolved to the point at which we could do without it, I think.
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Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 10:40 pm
@bigstew,
I know many farmers, they all seem to genuinely care for their animals. I've seen them give a pat or a rub to the animals and they feed, water and give them good clean shelter, fresh hay and the like. These cows, pigs and chicken live in open areas, fields and get excercise. A farmer who doesn't is a fool. My cousins and friends have all had pet cows, pigs and sheep. But none of them have lived to old age. Again, a farmer can't survive otherwise.
I don't believe in abusing animals. I have three dogs. They also eat meat. When they are ill or no longer have a good quality of life, I will put them down humanely.
For thousands and thousands of years, people have raised animals for food. A cruel farmer doesn't make a great business person. Factory farms are a new phenomenon and while I've been lucky to have a choice or where I buy my food, not everyone is. That being said, most animals in feed lots are raised humanely and not in factories pens and only their end is sad. Chickens have it the worst and I believe that this will change as we begin to realize that this isn't good for us either.
A recent report in Canada found that these chickens are full of anti-bo resistant bacteria. 67% of chicken in supermarkets had in some cases up to 5,6,7 and 8 types of very dangerous bacterias. This is a direct result of feeding chicken antibiotics.
I believe, this practice will discontinue as it is affecting the health of the average consumer. Just as the farming industry was forced to amend the practice of recycling 'protein' and feeding it back to cows - mad cow disease...
But the consumer has to educate themselves and demand better treatment and not full grown chickens in 45 days. It's just not natural.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 10:41 pm
@failures art,
To be honest, I've never heard of it. What is it and what do you do with it?
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 10:46 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

People eat meat because they want to, not out of neccesity. I stopped eating meat because there was no steak in the world that was worth the 8 meals of food that could have been produced with the same resources. There is a human element to vegetarianism as well.

A
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T


I live in Alberta. There are 4 times the cows than people. 16 million cows... Most of this land is not suitable for crops fit for human consumption. They eat wild grasses and other grains that grow on land, that is unable to produce crops that humans will or can eat. It is also considered the best beef in the world. I've tried corn fed - yuck! and hay fed - again it tastes exactly like eating a mouth full of hay. horrible.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 11:47 pm
@Ceili,
Quote:
There are 4 times the cows than people. 16 million cows.


I think that's a tad high, Ceili.

Quote:
The Canadian beef cattle herd dropped to 11 million head, down 1.4 per cent and the lowest in 15 years as of January 2010.

http://www.themeatsite.com/articles/903/canada-livestock-and-products-semiannual-report-2010
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2011 11:49 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

To be honest, I've never heard of it. What is it and what do you do with it?

Seitan is usually cubed and cooked. I think it makes for a good Chicken replacement if you are trying to update a recipe. Very popular in the vegetarian crowd because of it's high protein and its versatility.

A
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T
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:29 am
@JTT,
I meant canada, my mistake and according to 2011 stats there are 14 million in canada, of which alberta has 40% or estimates from 5.5 to 6 million. And approx. 1.6 million pigs, and 130,000 sheep. Regardless, the fact remains there are more cows than people, we don't grow a lot of broccoli or tomatoes.
How's the ivory tower today?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 05:59 am
@Ceili,
I never feel that Ive got an investment in the worlds welfare by eating meat. Meat dishes are the most flavorful and it accompanies the veggies so well. Most veggiephagies eat that way jut to rub our noses in their "superior" moral code.

Meat can act as a central dish or a mere flavoring, its wonderful now dont bother me with this crap.
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:06 pm
@farmerman,
All hail Iowa!!

Iowa House declares Bacon Day
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:12 pm
@Irishk,
Yeah Iowa ! ! !

Good find, Boss.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:38 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Most veggiephagies eat that way jut to rub our noses in their "superior" moral code.

Isn't it a bit narcissistic to claim that others do something just to attempt to have an effect on you?

Here's another possibility: Vegetarians eat "that way" because of a concern for animals, not a concern or desire to "rub [your] noses" in anything or make you the center of the issue.

Eat as you wish and be happy. If you don't see a moral issue here, acknowledge that others do. Getting overly defensive ("veggiephagies") is unnecessary. Further, it seems odd to claim you're under attack of moralizers, then enter with insult. Perhaps you provoke the responses you get.

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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:43 pm
It is, of course, also perfectly reasonable to assume that some, even many (most?) vegetarians eat as they do for reasons of their concern for their health, and have no interest in taking some holier than thou moral position.

Just a though.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:43 pm
Hey FA,

Good point here, but I take it differently:

Quote:
(3) I view humans as animals, not separate from the animal kingdom. I don't subscribe to the idea of "owning" or objectifying animals in this way.


I also view humans as animals, and not separate. But that's why I have no problem eating other animals. Because animals eat other animals on a regular basis.

When I think about my body, my self - as an animal - I see a hunter. A predator. Not a gatherer. My body is ideally shaped to kill other animals. My teeth are shaped to eat them. My brain grew large to outsmart them. I see consuming other animals as the fulfillment of my animal self, not as some sort of ownership of that animal, or a sign of superiority over them.

Cycloptichorn
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:59 pm
Quite apart from that, there is a silly superciliousness in any attitude of moral superiority by vegetarians. Omnivores take the lives of other living things from both the animal and plant kingdoms in order to survive. Vegetarians (who also don't eat eggs) only take the lives of living things from the plant kingdom in order to survive. That makes them morally superior? The life of a plant is worthless? It's a silly, silly position upon which to assert one's moral superiority.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:05 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I think others may see themselves and not see hunters or predators. Much of what you say is valid, certainly so in the paleoithic era. However, deer ate filed mice in this period too. What should we conclude from that about deer?

I will say that I have virtually no objection to hunters. I feel a person who accepts the burden of hunting and cleaning their own kill at least understands what goes into their meal. I think my objections cone when a person will buy neatly packaged meat, but can't stand to watch a cow be butchered. If I can't bring myself to kill it, then I'm not going to eat it.

A
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:12 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
(1) The human body does not require animal products. All nutrients can be found in plant life.

You may want to look into taking supplements for Vitamin B12, which doesn't occur in plants. Also, I'm not a Vegan myself, just a hypocritical omnivore. But I agree with the rest of your post.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2011 01:17 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

I think others may see themselves and not see hunters or predators. Much of what you say is valid, certainly so in the paleoithic era. However, deer ate filed mice in this period too. What should we conclude from that about deer?

I will say that I have virtually no objection to hunters. I feel a person who accepts the burden of hunting and cleaning their own kill at least understands what goes into their meal. I think my objections cone when a person will buy neatly packaged meat, but can't stand to watch a cow be butchered. If I can't bring myself to kill it, then I'm not going to eat it.

A
R
T


That's fair enough. I have a good amount of personal experience with killing animals, however; from catching fish and birds, killing them, and prepping them for consumption, to some time I spent on relative's farms as a youth, watching a pig being slaughtered. I know what it is to kill an animal. To me, this just informs my respect for them, for giving up their life so mine could continue.

Part of my attitude on this matter is also definitely related to the fact that I only really recognize one form of life on this planet: DNA. All this gross physical difference is just expression of DNA. I don't recognize differences between species of types of expression in the way that most would; I reject those boundaries as artificial. To me, there's no difference between a stalk of wheat and a rabbit...

Cycloptichorn
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