What would life be like if God/god/gods really existed?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Righto, Fil. Empathy fully understood is not just a one way street, it's the beginning of a process. I pick your nits off of your neck and back, thereby relieving you of the stress I saw you were in and you (reciprocity) take some time out later to do some nit-picking on me. We begin to weave some social fabric.
Joe(do you prefer plaid or paisley prints?)Nation

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@Joe Nation,

Well that´s often the problem around...extremely maniqueistich opposition on how we go about some ideas...(we all do it time to time)

Your presence was certainly a nice original addition to the forum...fresh air.
(Plaid to dress and Paisley to look at...while I am a Capricorn, my girlfriend is an Aquarius... Wink

)

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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is the kind of clever selfishness in which one helps others to gain advantage as a group, either against other groups, or against nature itself at large

Which is only done to gain an advantage for the individual . That's what survival is....the selfish attitude of the individual to pass on their genetic inheritance .

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@Ionus,

And just what is wrong on that, eh ??? Empathy and self survival together, I find quite reasonable, quite clever...would you care to explain just why one should n´t preserve himself and respect is own needs while simultaneously helping others...life is suppose to be a challenge, or maybe you don´t get that part right, with your romantic naive idea of Eden boredom and such...the lamb and the lion grazing together and all that nonsense...I often wonder what is it in you "Religious people", why can´t you look at it for what it truly is worth ? find it in yourself to confront your beliefs in the trial of Reason, that´s all you have left as a dignified human being on its way to oblivion...Stand up and be a man !

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@Ionus,

Ionus asked

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If you find the concept of God being necessary for your existence then what about the concept of the universe being necessary for your existence ? Is one really that much stranger than the other ?

This is actually the reverse of what I said. At the risk of repeating myself, I'll paraphrase: If you, Ionus, can conceive of an infinite God, I, Joe Nation, can conceive of an infinite universe, thus rendering an infinite God unnecessary and redundant. It's not that one is stranger than the other, one concept, the infinite universe, eliminates the other.
Ionus asked:

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What the pond scum question was really about is how do we go from that to where we are now where you say we have empathy . What survival mechanism brings about empathy ?

Answered above. Pay attention to the idea that empathy doesn't occur in a vacuum but as part of a process.
Joe Nation said:

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We do have data to show that the present character sketch of God doesn't fit any rational pattern and therefore must be flawed.

Ionus asked:

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I think you have been having an insulated conversation with other atheists . Tell me how God is flawed ?

I tried unsuccessfully to show God's flaws earlier. I'll try again. Throughout the last 6,000 years, humans have been offering up various attempts at describing what God is and who God is, two separate things, and all of those character sketches, to use the term above, have failed to be matched by their purported God.

If you read Karen Armstrong or Robert Wright, you get the idea that no matter what scripturally revealed concept of God has been at any point in Western human history, God has failed to fulfill His own supposed revelations. Which is, of course, why the definition of who or what God is keeps getting changed.

God, we are told, is loving, merciful and just AND, at the very same time and to the very same humans, angry, vengeful and righteous. He is, at once, unknowable but unalterable.
He creates imperfect creatures and commands them to become perfect. That, without doubt, punctures the idea of a just God.
The penalty for failure, willful or otherwise, is eternal damnation in a hell without end.
(Yea! We finally get to be infinite too.)
That's not a god, that's a dictator. What kind of omnipotent creator is so incompetent as to not be able to create a creature capable of taking His own dictation. No pun intended .
Joe Nation said:

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We don't have all the data to show how the infinite universe works completely, but we are working at finding the evidence rather than just guessing at what must be or adding in a completely unnecessary, equally infinite, creator.

Ionus asked:

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The scientific method involves eliminating all other variables and concentrating on one only . How can we do that for human life ?

Not to be flip, but how can we not? We are a curious species, inclined to discern patterns of evidence, destined, if our history is any witness and if we are allowed to proceed without interference from the fearful, to find out everything about the expanding universe around us.
Joe( I am not an atheist, I am an anti-theist. Gods do not exist.)Nation

1 Reply

@Joe Nation,

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one concept, the infinite universe, eliminates the other.

How so ?

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I tried unsuccessfully to show God's flaws earlier. I'll try again.

You have shown how the human concept of God is flawed. That has nothing to do with God. It is like me saying you are an idiot because I perceive you to be one. It simply is not true and has nothing to do with you. It is my incorrect impression.

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If you read Karen Armstrong or Robert Wright,

I have, and neither of those authors believe the scientific method is applicable to how we live our lives. The only method for day to day living is not by science it is by a religion of one kind or another, even if that religion is usually called atheism.

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if we are allowed to proceed without interference from the fearful, to find out everything about the expanding universe around us.

Fear is a good thing. Never read or seen any science fiction about a fearful future that was instigated by a lack of fear of consequences ? To find out about the universe one step at a time is fine if you are engineering a new building but it is hardly adequate to come up with a method to live by when we are alive now and need a mechanism now and have needed one for thousands of years. What were we to do while we waited and still wait for science to provide answers ?

Why do you keep presenting the God of the Old Testament and of fundamentalists as being all there is ? You attack quite specific concepts of what God is and think you have proven God doesn't exist. That is the methodology of religions nuts proving God evolution didn't occur. Doesn't it embarrass you to be associated with such ?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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would you care to explain just why one should n´t preserve himself and respect is own needs while simultaneously helping others

Certainly. It is only your imagination that sees helping others as not selfish.

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often wonder what is it in you "Religious people"

I am going to start charging a dollar for every time I have to say this ...I AM NOT RELIGIOUS....what do you mean YOU people anyway ?

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What would life be like if God/god/gods really existed?

our Human psyche is manipulated by them , god(s) , into reverence to gods with no proof that we should

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@Ionus,

OK...fair and square, not Religious, good for you...now are you a person of faith or science, how do you describe yourself ? When facing sufficient evidence, do you listen, and if you don´t, do you have a better argument ?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I am definitely a person of science which includes the possibility of a God, just not a personal God. The NEED for a God with some people is obvious and no professional trained in the human mind would recommend trying to take religion away from them.

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do you listen

Far more than most. I do not have anyone on ignore and never will. I am here to read ALL arguments.

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well lets listen to both

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@Ionus,

good...I can live with that...
...but I wonder why would you separate Creator from creation if not looking for a personal God ? Can´t you see you´re cutting things in have ? Occam´s Razor principle is recommended...I think Joe Nation just mentioned it some posts up...

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Today, I have to address the issue of God in my ENG 101 classes. A student argued against the death penalty by saying only God had the right to punish. That is not an argument but . . . it is a difficult issue for me to handle as their instructor.

Do I discuss the separation of church and state? What about the fact that many Christians will argue for the death penalty based on Christianity?

I will say that arguing based on God's role in the lives of men is a statement based on faith that can not be argued.

I have weighed this in my mind since I read the student's paper -- which was supposed to have been researched and wasn't -- and it has occurred to me that God is probably the collective beliefs of mankind.

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What would life be like if God/god/gods really existed?

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