Court Sentences Members of Neo-Nazi Band

Again, it is then up to the parents to decide whether the material is appropriate for their children. The sticker is merely a "heads up".

I have no idea whether the sticker on "Guns 'N' Roses is deserved or not.............come to think of it, I wouldn't know Guns 'N' Roses from long stemmed roses, and therein lies the problem for parents!!!

I think Guns and Roses is just axel, the trimmed stemmed rose nowadays!

But it isn't fair to a teen, b/c alot of the parents are Nazis themselves when it comes to those labels.

One of the most beautiful things about being a minor, is that you eventually get to outgrow the label. When young people are on their own, and self-sufficient, they are entitled to do as they darn please. In the meantime, it is the parent's responsibility to inculcate their values.

I don't think that any kid becomes permanently traumatized by not being allowed to listen to certain CDs!

The reverse is not often true!

Sorry Phoenix, for pasting all your answers together like this and using 'em to make a point (and for straying from the topic), but thats exactly the part I just dont get. And this is more like a generalised rant, not specifically meant at you, of course.

I mean, talk about abrogating one's responsibility as guides & mentors. In the end, the only way for parents to know Guns 'N' Roses from long stemmed roses - and thus be able to judge themselves what is going on with the stuff their kids listen to - is just take a listen! Who is going to stop you from borrowing your kid's CD and listen to it, just the once? All the shops have headphones too ... It won't kill one to give it a go, even if it might not be exactly one's own taste! (Lord knows my parents had to listen to our music all the time .

You'd think that parents who are really that concerned about lyrics and stuff would consider it worth that much of an effort ... And then you can make up your own mind about it, and you dont have to rely on some government's or executive's decision on what deserves a sticker or not.

Hey, your kid wont mind - perhaps (s)he'd even appreciate the parent showing an interest that goes farther than wanting to forbid stuff cause of "having heard its bad" ...

Basically, when it comes to "abrogating parental responsibility", those stickers are the ticket. They're just a lazy way out for the parent, a substitute for actual interest.

For one, they deduce the choice to, should I allow or forbid my children to listen to this. Well, once they reach puberty it's pretty much a losing strategy to forbid them to read or listen to anything - it was short enough ago for me to remember that ;-). They'll just listen to it at a friend's place, or they tape it secretly and play it on their walkman on their way to school. Thats just pushing it underground and then you really dont know anymore what your kid is into.

What you wanna do is simply keep an overall check on what any of the stuff your kids are listening to might mean - like, without investing all too much significance in it all, with enough relativation - but just keeping the pulse so to say. And to know what it all might mean, you're still just going to have to talk with your kid about it, should anything come up that dont look right to you - and listen what they have to say about it. Whether its a fad or a joke to them or something serious, and if so, what they like about it - from that kinda thing you can take your cues on what to look out for.

And the thing is, you cant talk much about it if all you know is that the government or industry has labelled it X, so it must be "bad".

Its like with everything - if one wants to take on parental responsibility, one should get involved. Not rely on labels cause every kid is different and can handle different things. Most parents have just the one or two kids nowadays, so it should be do-able ... just the one odd lyric wont destabilise them after all, so it's not like you'll need to pre-test every track, you just gotta watch the 'bigger lines'.

I mean, when I started listening to "It takes a nation of millions to hold us back", "Freedom got a shotgun" and "I'm your pusher" when I was 15, my father frowned, for sure. And its not like he went into any long discussions about it with me (thank god), but he made sure to note that he'd seen it - and kinda sound out whether I really was some kinda new revolutionary or in awe of those gangsta pimps. (It pleased him no end that I was more of the former than of the latter <grins>.) He didnt forbid any of it - just made sure to keep track, so that if things would get out of hand, he'd know in time. Thats the right thing to do, imho!

As for the original question ... <ahem>

(... he continued after a break which he was hoping would make sure that he wouldnt end up posting two long-ass posts in a row ...)

In general I think that anyone who calls upon other people to go out and beat up/kill other people (not like, "kill all the pricks", but like: "kill the africans in this town" or, "kill nimh") - should be prosecuted, or at least forbidden to do so any more.

But short of that, in general, I think anyone should be free to say (or sing) what they want, even if it is hateful. I mean, if you want punks to be able to sing, "eat the rich" or "**** the queen", then how to stop skins from singing, "damn the blacks"?

But in practice that line is hard to draw - see the lyrics Walter posted above. And its also easy to judge from one's armchair ... I mean, there is tremendous racist violence in especially East-Germany, perpetrated by young skinhead kids. Berlin is fine, but the surrounding provinces are to some extent no-go areas for coloured people. There have been stories of Berlin schools not going on out-of-town schooltrips anymore because students were getting beaten up. So I can see the need for something to be done.

Repression alone wont help, of course. The main problem is of smalltown Brandenburg kids growing up in places where there's nothing to do - and nothing to hope for - with parents who have often just kindof "disconnected" from it all, themselves - and neither parents (in the old GDR) nor the kids now receiving much in the way of intercultural education or even just day-to-day intercultural interaction.

Just throwing the singers into prison wont help none, but yeh - something needed to happen - so its perhaps too easy to preach about freedom of speech from the outside. Still, I voted "no" in the poll.

Court journalists said that one of the young men seemed to have changed his minds and broke with the Nazi scene.
They are not certain about the second one, but do beliefe that the band leader might get the status of a hero amongst the Nazis. (The right wing press has already started with "freedom", "suppressed", "always against us", "Nazi-like courts" etc

Bit of a mixed record, huh :-/

Well maybe not traumatize, but it does cause sour relationships between parent and child which could easily traumatize a child!

I don't think any kid becomes permanently traumatized by being allowed to listen to this or that CD, either ... so thats really neither here nor there. <shrugs>

When my son was a teenager he got into heavy metal and head banger music (I really don't know which is which). I spent a great deal of time talking about this music with him, but I never told him he couldn't listen. But, the Nazi band I would not have allowed, from what I have read about it on this thread. - Another thing to consider: I tried my best to keep my kids from seeing the Charles Bronson films about a guy that goes around murdering undesireables of society. But the ones that wanted to see it did at their friends' homes, on vhs. Once I realized my act of censorship was a failure I explained to my kids what I found objectionable about such movies. All in all, the kids grew up to be pretty level headed.

nimh- I am not so sure about that. Teens go through a lot of changes during adolescence. Sometimes, kids go through periods of a lot of anger and/or depression.

At that time of life, they have not yet developed the coping skills that they need to deal with those emotions. Listening, over and over again, to music that reinforces their maladaptive tendencies, IMO, cannot be healthy for them.

Music that may sound morbid or depressing to one, can actually be very comforting to another, though. And imagine taking that away, even with the best intentions ...

When I was a teenager I listened a lot to - <ahem> (please don't tell anyone;) - The Smiths for a while ... Joy Division, Sisters of Mercy, too, for example. Now if you listen to those lyrics (or even just the music), for all the differences between 'em, they all sound pretty damn depressing. (The singer of Joy Division committed suicide).

But to me, this music was comforting - and I'm pretty sure this went for most of their fans, too.

First off - finally, here's people who understood how you felt! Suddenly, your angst was no longer just a lonely individual feeling that made you wonder whether you were crazy, but something akin to a group experience image identity kinda thing, that teenagers like so much. To put it irreverently, it basically transforms individual pain into an opportunity to get together with other people, go to concerts, swap tapes, discuss lyrics, not feel alone. Oh look at us all being so depressed (and we're so cool, too).

Secondly, and more important still, there's sincere individual comfort in listening to music that reflects your mood. It's soothing, when your own thoughts drive you mad - and teens need that more than anyone. 'S never been different: it's why we enjoy listening to the blues when we have the blues ...

Now if my parents would have gotten alarmed by any of that music and they'd have asked what it was all about, I could have explained. But if they would have made the decision for me that "this music isn't good for you" and had forbidden me to listen to it, they would have left me bereft of the only real comfort I felt I had at that particular time. And of the one thing that allowed me to escape, vent or "act out" all those conflicting feelings teens are turmoiled by.

I would have felt more alone and misunderstood still - and specifically, deserted by them, because they trusted some government sticker over what I could have told them. It would have caused a rift, yeh, absolutely.

I think Edgarblythe pretty much understood what to do, learnt the lessons in practice, and did the right thing ... respect to you, Edgar :-).

Er...I'm 36, I still listen to Goth (or, as my young students refer to is "It isn't goth, its darkwave! (insert sullen pout)).

"darkwave", huh? <grins>

Yup. Listening to Faith and the Muse right now.

Last year I went with Anastasia (another 30-year-old who survived harsh teenage years by listening to music that a parent might have judged to "reinforce her maladaptive tendencies" ;-)) to a Goth party in the squat around the corner here. We were all hoping to revisit some of those Sisters of Mercy memories - NOT! We didn't know a single tune they played! Gettin' old <big grin>

Some of the new stuff is quite good. The Awakening is good, tehir song "We Are the Dark Romantics" has apparrently taken the place of "This Corrosion" as the new theme. One of my students refers to me as a "Cromagna-goth."

here we go:We Are the Dark Romantics: Single Mix