53
   

Tunesia, Egyt and now Yemen: a domino effect in the Middle East?

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 07:18 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However I do disagree with the assessment. The ICC lacks credibility because the signatories to this convention themselves lack credibility.

Do you think if the US was a participating signatory that it would have more credibility in your eyes, George?

Quote:
The history of this strange institution demonstrates that very well.

I'm interested to hear more. What is it about its history that makes it a "strange institution" which lacks credibility?

georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 07:28 pm
@msolga,
Had the U.S. become a signatory it would likely have somewhat more credibility as you term it. However, I believe it would still be an ineffective organization, lacking in force, credibility and significant beneficial effects. It is merely an artful disguise for an attack on the soverignty of nations by the consenting least common denominator of consenting nations looking to evade their own responsibilities with something resembling Aesops' bell for the cat.

Can you cite any beneficial effect it has had on the behavior of nations or their leaders?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 07:28 pm
@msolga,
It isn't necessarily so; the US was signatories to the Geneva Conventions, but GW Bush tortured prisoners; that was against both domestic and international laws.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 07:44 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Had the U.S. become a signatory it would likely have somewhat more credibility as you term it. However, I believe it would still be an ineffective organization, lacking in force, credibility and significant beneficial effects. It is merely an artful disguise for an attack on the soverignty of nations by the consenting least common denominator of consenting nations looking to evade their own responsibilities with something resembling Aesops' bell for the cat.

No, I was referring to your words about credibility, George.
You don't think there's something positive to be said for an international court of justice to protect global human rights, as opposed to the concerns of sovereign nations?
It would seem to me that those are virtuous goals, fully worthy of support .
Perhaps the ICC would have been less of a toothless tiger if all nations who advocate human rights goals were participating signatories?

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 07:55 pm
@msolga,
There are all sorts of well-founded charges which could be brought against Colonel Gaddafi's human rights abuses in Libya. It would seem to me that International Criminal Court (if it had the full support of the international community) would serve a powerful & proper function in support of the citizens of that country. That may not put and end to Gaddifi's genocidal madness, of course, but it would surely give the international community considerably more united "muscle"?
Ceili
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 07:58 pm
An interesting talk on TED. It's long... but worth listening to.

http://www.ted.com/talks/wadah_khanfar_a_historic_moment_in_the_arab_world.html?awesm=on.ted.com_Khanfar&utm_content=awesm-bookmarklet&utm_medium=on.ted.com-static&utm_source=direct-on.ted.com
As a democratic revolution led by tech-empowered young people sweeps the Arab world, Wadah Khanfar, the head of Al Jazeera, shares a profoundly optimistic view of what's happening in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and beyond -- at this powerful moment when people realized they could step out of their houses and ask for change.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 08:00 pm
@Ceili,
I find it pretty amazing; it was a completely different world just about one month ago.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 08:10 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

There are all sorts of well-founded charges which could be brought against Colonel Gaddafi's human rights abuses in Libya. It would seem to me that International Criminal Court (if it had the full support of the international community) would serve a powerful & proper function in support of the citizens of that country. That may not put and end to Gaddifi's genocidal madness, of course, but it surely give the international community considerably more united "muscle"?

I agree with all that in principle. However, like the problem of the mice in belling the cat, it is easier to say than to do. The fact is that only governments repsenting a little less than a third of the world's population have signed on. Moreover, those that have signed haven't been very faithful to their promised and committments implied in the charter, and I doubt that this will ever change.

Finally, I am not willing to put myself or my elected leaders up to the justice of "the international community" in any event. Consider that "the international community" selected Gadaffi's government for membership (even the chair) of the UN Human Rights Council. It isn't a very reliable or respectable group.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 08:26 pm
@georgeob1,
I think I am far more of an optimist compared to you (obviously) about the potential good that would flow from a genuine attempt on the part of the international community, George. Even if not every single country is a signatory.
I also have no doubt what-so-ever, that the active participation & support of the most powerful nation on earth would add huge credibility (say nothing of power & influence) to the ICC.
I can't see a better reason to forfeit some sovereign rights of any country than the support of global human rights of those most vulnerable to abuse.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 09:19 pm
@msolga,
I think the answer is that you do indeed have a more optimistic view than do I of the inclination of the international community to either agree about anything at all, or even to seek justice. I don't fault your viewpoint, indeed I accept that it is based on hope for a better future. However, in view of all that I know about human history and all that I have learned about the mass behavior of people, I very strongly believe that my skepticism is far more realistic than your optimism.

I believe the observable behavior of the ICC to date illustrates my point. It has not pursued cases among signatory countries or even non signatories based on any observable principle of equal justice. Indeed it has overlooked far worse crimes than the few that it has pursued. It has only gone after impotent or friendless villians. Far worse ones who are friendly to major powers ,or on which some depend for certain strategic advantages, go unprosecuted. That is not justice as I see it: it instead is merely a veneer applied to international lynchings. In that sense the ICC is merely a sort of paid assassin which preys on only the disposable and friendless villians of the world.

I recognize that you may hope it evolves into something better over time. However I see nothing in the long record of human history that suggests that is possible. Instead it will remain the cynical tool of the least common denominator, doing harm in the process. It is for that reason that I oppose our approval or acceptance of it. I would certainly never voluntarily accept its jurisdiction over myself or my countrymen.

dyslexia
 
  9  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 09:53 pm
@georgeob1,
For some of us the very idea of optimism, hope, idealism etc is not in contradiction to harsh reality but rather a direction we would seek. A utopia is not a place but it can be a goal, changing the world just means changing ourselves to be slightly more humane than we were the day before.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 09:57 pm
One man set himself on fire and burned down North Africa . I think even atheists could say a prayer of thanks for his sacrifice .
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 09:59 pm
@dyslexia,
That's easy for you to say, you double back-stabber! You're all hat and no cattle.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 10:13 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

For some of us the very idea of optimism, hope, idealism etc is not in contradiction to harsh reality but rather a direction we would seek. A utopia is not a place but it can be a goal, changing the world just means changing ourselves to be slightly more humane than we were the day before.


Then you can seek to perfect yourself. Don't hold your breath waiting for everyone else to make the same choice, or for yourself even to achieve that perfection.

A lot more real harm and suffering has been caused in the world by those who have seen themselves as the agents for the perfection of mankind. Consider how much suffering and evil attended the "noble" effort of creating "socialist man" from the ever selfish, contradictory and unruly masses of real human beings in Russia and China in the last century.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  4  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 10:24 pm
wow, what a testy lot we have tonight.
Diane
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 10:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Tak, you have been making hateful and insulting statements to Dys for at least the past two years. And you attack him on every thread the two of post on.

Please have the honor and decency to tell him why you made this turn around, because I know the two of you shared an amiable aquaintance. I'll never suggest the two of you "make up and be friends," that is obviously out of the question and certainly not necessary.

For most people who have a problem with someone else, they let the other person know right away and then let it play out to the end. You, on the other hand, just keep attacking and making disgusting insults to Dys.

Just stop it or put Dys on ignore, but at least be a man and stand up and say what it is that has you so irrational about one of the most decent men I've ever know.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 10:41 pm
@dyslexia,
I'm rarely testy, Dys. Opinionated and occasionally irritable, but I actually have a hard time staying sore at anyone for more than a few moments.

Glad to see a glimpse of Diane's fierce loyalty again. I got my first sample of that after our dinner in Albuquerque. My wife doesn't like it when others criticize me either - she thinks that job is exclusively hers.

Cicerone is always testy. However in person he is a nice guy with a good heart.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 10:57 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However, in view of all that I know about human history and all that I have learned about the mass behavior of people, I very strongly believe that my skepticism is far more realistic than your optimism.


What Gob is trying to say here is that he knows full well that the US is guilty of myriad war crimes and though it is highly highly unlikely, virtually impossible that he would ever be charged, the mere fact that he would be tainted by the criminal actions that he took part in is more than he can handle.

Somewhere around three to four million people died because of the criminal actions of the CIA and the subsequent illegal invasion by the US and its cohorts of a number of SE Asian countries.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 11:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You're all hat and no cattle.


As far as I know, this part is true. You've got out of cattle and you still like to wear cowboy hats. Smile
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2011 11:18 pm
@Diane,
I sent dys a PM to tell him; he's been on my case from about two years ago, and for the life of me, I'm not sure why he's been insulting me with some snide comments about my posts.

Diane, I've never had any bad experience with you; you've been sweet and consistent since we first met. You should know how I felt about the two of you from the time you lived in Colorado - including our trip to Europe.

I'm not one to sit around and get bit once too often. I usually fight back.



0 Replies
 
 

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