32
   

Things that sound wrong when pronounced right.

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 01:27 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
it says /e/
Come again ?

MontereyJack wrote:
Always happy to reciprocate.
I did not insult u, personally.
I objected to what u DID (said).
There is a significant difference.





David
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 01:53 am
æəɜðŋ oh, good, I've found a way to type IPA symbols .
Not significant enough, David.
The video is of a native Spanish speaker pronouncing Spanish "e", which is phonetically /e/, which does not sound like the "e" in "bet", which would have been what looks like a backward 3, except I hit the wrong key when I was testing out if the IPA symbols would transfer to a2k.

There are actually more than a dozen vowel sounds in English, while we only have five letters to represent them, and then we tend to diphthongize them, so "long" English "a" is actually phonetically more like /ei/, and Spanish "e" is phonetically mostly /e/, which is pretty much English "a" without the "ee" (=/i/ in IPA part. In some contexts Spanish "e" can drift a bit toward the backward 3, which dammit I didn't type, which is like the English "e" in "bet" and is adjacent to /e/ if you look at a chart of where and how vowels are produced in the moutn, but phoneticians mostly seem to agree that Spanish "e' is /e/, which is to repeat, like the first half of English long "A".

Try looking at "Spanish phonology" and "IPA" in Wikipedia, David. You don't give the impression of actually knowing much about phonetics. And keep in mind that there are a number of Spanish accents, differing both by country and often by regions or ethnic groups within countries, and the people I've known make merciless fun of other accents (including Spanish Spanish, which seems to sound kind of effete and affected to Western Hemisphere ears, from what people have told me), so whatever people have told you may be only applicable to a particular part of the whole family of Spanishes.

OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:51 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

æəɜðŋ oh, good, I've found a way to type IPA symbols .
Not significant enough, David.
The video is of a native Spanish speaker pronouncing Spanish "e", which is phonetically /e/, which does not sound like the "e" in "bet", which would have been what looks like a backward 3, except I hit the wrong key when I was testing out if the IPA symbols would transfer to a2k.

There are actually more than a dozen vowel sounds in English, while we only have five letters to represent them, and then we tend to diphthongize them, so "long" English "a" is actually phonetically more like /ei/, and Spanish "e" is phonetically mostly /e/, which is pretty much English "a" without the "ee" (=/i/ in IPA part. In some contexts Spanish "e" can drift a bit toward the backward 3, which dammit I didn't type, which is like the English "e" in "bet" and is adjacent to /e/ if you look at a chart of where and how vowels are produced in the moutn, but phoneticians mostly seem to agree that Spanish "e' is /e/, which is to repeat, like the first half of English long "A".

Try looking at "Spanish phonology" and "IPA" in Wikipedia, David. You don't give the impression of actually knowing much about phonetics. And keep in mind that there are a number of Spanish accents, differing both by country and often by regions or ethnic groups within countries, and the people I've known make merciless fun of other accents (including Spanish Spanish, which seems to sound kind of effete and affected to Western Hemisphere ears, from what people have told me), so whatever people have told you may be only applicable to a particular part of the whole family of Spanishes.
It is ez to forgive
any imperfections in your typing
inasmuch as those symbols r not in my vocabulary.

I re-iterate:
I have known Spaniards (my ex-Godmother was a natural born Spaniard)
and people from different countries of South America, who laffed at and made fun of
the ignorant American accent of twisting an E into an A.

I 'd listen to your video if my speaker were functioning,
but I remain skeptical that he has better authority
than my sources whose first languages
were the Spanish of Spain itself and of Colombia,
Venezuela, Panama etc.
I personally actually HEARD them in conversation
among themselves, for years and years,
and I heard that thay were 100% unanimous
in casual conversation that NONE of them EVER twisted an E into an A
nor did the first part (nor ANY part) of a Spanish e
partake of the slightest trace of an A.
In the Spanish of Spain and of South America
letters E and A are like oil and water.

Again: each E was pronounced as a short E,
as in get, bed and bet.
These were people most of whom came to America as adults,
having grown up in the midst of Spanish for years & decades,
and learning English as a second language.
I find it very difficult to believe that thay ALL were making an odd,
aberrant mistake in pronouncing their own mother tongue
and that by some odd co-incidence,
thay ALL chanced to randomly stumble upon the SAME weird, off-the-beaten-path distortion.

When thay taught me to speak Spanish,
thay did so in good faith. Thay did not teach me
twisted erroneous pronunciations.
In speaking directly to ME, thay pointed out
the specific error of Americans twisting E into A; thay joked about it
and indicated that I shoud avoid thusly making a fool of myself.

I adopted their wisdom.





David
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 08:31 am
David, you've got it backward--what English spells A (long A, not short) is a somewhat dipthongized version of what Spanish and phoneticians and the rest of the world spell /e/, which is the essentially universal phonetic symbol for the sound And my experience with Mexicans and Puerto Ricans is not yours. The somewhat slangy term for a dollar is NOT pronounced "pess-oh", trust me on this.

Have you inadvertently hit one of the several virtual (not physical)"mute" buttons that can appear from time to time, or turned the volume control down on your speaker (usually on the toolbar)? If your computer has a separate headphone jack, or a headphone jack on the sound card, you can get stereo speakers at a computer store for under diez pesos (or quite a bit more, depending on the speakers).
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 09:44 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
In some contexts Spanish "e" can drift a bit toward the backward 3. . .


Do you have a cite for this?

Quote:
The somewhat slangy term for a dollar is NOT pronounced "pess-oh", trust me on this.


The Mexican monetary unit is the peso. It's pronounced "PEH soh".
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 09:58 am
Spanish speakers in the States also use it for the dollar. And the pronunciation is generally /e/, not /ɛ/
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:04 am
I'm thinking that pronunciation of Spanish/Mexican words is probably due to regional differences. In other words, they're all right depending on where your doing your speaking.

I lived in Texas and couldn't understand many people from Louisiana, and they were right next door.
fbaezer
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:22 am
@boomerang,
This doesn't happen with the vowels.
Each one has a clear-cut sound, respected from Galicia to the Canary Islands, and from Tijuana to Patagonia.

The only ones who diphthongize vowels while speaking Spanish are native English speakers (they may be Hispanic-Americans, or Latin-Americans raised in the US since early childhood).
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:43 am
well, no, it's not that simple--while the vowel structure in Spanish is more clear cut than English, there is in fact more than one sound for "e" and it is often context-dependent.
Quote:
The Spanish vowel e has a sound that can vary depending on its location in a word. Its pronunciation also varies somewhat among various regions and even with individual speakers.

The most common sound for e is much like the English "e" sound in word such as "test" and "wrench." This sound is especially common when the e is located between two consonants.

Sometimes, the e is similar to the vowel sound in English words such as "say" - but shorter. Some explanation is in order here. If you listen carefully, you may notice that for many English speakers the vowel sound in "say" is made up of two sounds - there's an "eh" sound that glides into an "ee" sound, so the word is pronounced something like "seh-ee." When pronouncing the Spanish e, only the "eh" sound is used - there's no glide into an "ee" sound. (In fact, if you pronounce the glide, it becomes the Spanish diphthong ei rather than e. As one native speaker using the nickname Didi explained recently in our forum: "As a native I'd say that the most accurate pronunciation for that e sound is like that in 'bet' or 'met.' The sound of 'ace' has an extra vowel sound that makes it unsuitable."

The variable nature of the e sound also was explained well in this forum post by Mim100: The simple vowel e can be rendered anywhere across a range of tongue heights, from roughly mid-low (or mid-open), resembling what you hear as 'por-KEH,' to mid-high (or mid-closed), resembling what you hear as 'por-KAY.' The key feature of the simple vowel e is that it is pronounced somewhere within that range of tongue height and that the tongue does not change height or shape during the course of pronouncing the vowel. Standard Spanish does not distinguish between words based on how open or closed the vowel e happens to be pronounced. You may hear a more open pronunciation more often in closed syllables (syllables that end in a consonant), and you may hear a more closed pronunciation more often in open syllables (syllables that end in a vowel)."
[/size]
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:43 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
David, you've got it backward--what English spells A (long A, not short) is a somewhat dipthongized version of what Spanish and phoneticians and the rest of the world spell /e/, which is the essentially universal phonetic symbol for the sound And my experience with Mexicans and Puerto Ricans is not yours.

The somewhat slangy term for a dollar is NOT pronounced "pess-oh", trust me on this.
I can 't do that, Jack.
That 's like asking me to trust u
that there is no snow in NY, or that 3 + 3 = 7.
In my memory of both sight and sound,
as clear as a bell I remember my late
ex-Godmother (from Spain) speaking of pesetas (short e both times: pesetas)
and other native Spanish speakers saying
"peso" or "pescado" (fish) or "que" (what)
in which the e is always, with no exception
pronounced as a short e as in BET.

In my mind, the idea of any of them expressing "peso"
(it means weight and it is a monetary unit) as "pay - so" is like saying that
it is never dark at night. This is a known fact,
devoid of any speculation. If we got on a plane
and went to Spain, the chance of any native Spaniard saying "pay - so" is O.
I am 100% confident of this.



MontereyJack wrote:
Have you inadvertently hit one of the several virtual (not physical)"mute" buttons that can appear from time to time, or turned the volume control down on your speaker (usually on the toolbar)? If your computer has a separate headphone jack, or a headphone jack on the sound card, you can get stereo speakers at a computer store for under diez pesos (or quite a bit more, depending on the speakers).
Thank u; I have the replacement speakers in a box
from which someone is gonna unpack them
n connect them.





David
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 10:54 am
David, see my post before yours, which I was editing to add emphasis while you were posting apparently. It bears directly on the question. You seem to have dealt with people who pronounce it more toward the /ɛ/ in contexts where it varies. I've had more contact with the /e/ end of the pronunciation spectrum. You live in NYC. Go ask a Spanish speaker on the street how they pronounce "peso". I think you'll be surprised. And I keep telling you English diphthongs what you think of as the "A" sound and you have to disregard the second part of it to get closer to the Spanish
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:24 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
David, see my post before yours, which I was editing to add emphasis while you were posting apparently. It bears directly on the question. You seem to have dealt with people who pronounce it more toward the /ɛ/ in contexts where it varies. I've had more contact with the /e/ end of the pronunciation spectrum. You live in NYC. Go ask a Spanish speaker on the street how they pronounce "peso". I think you'll be surprised.
OK. I just called an old friend of mine, Cloty, an elderly woman
who was born and raised in Colombia, South America.
She is well educated. She is retired from a high level
executive position at the Chase Manhattan Bank.
For quite a few years she was an executive officer
and on the Board of Directors of New York Mensa,
(the largest Mensa chapter in the World).
In other words: she is NOT a fool.

In a non-leading way,
I asked her how to pronounce PESO.
She said it as I knew that she woud.
I mentioned your alternate pronunciation.
She said: "That 's wrong."

To my mind,
it is inconceivable that I coud have spent years
and decades in the presence of people who were
speaking Spanish in conversation among themselves,
people from Spain, Colombia, Venezuela, Mexico,
Panama, Argentina, Cuba and Chile ALL of whom
casually, as a matter of course, use the short e pronunciation, as I have described
and thay did it 100% of the time, with no variations.
To me, it is inconceivable that thay were ALL
in error as to the correct pronunciation
and that, by idle chance and random luck
thay ALL stumbled upon the same awkward vocal distortion
and that YOU are coming to the rescue with the correct way to speak Spanish.

I can 't imagine my telling them, as thay spoke:
"no, no, u r not supposed to say it that way.
U shoud say: "PAY - so".





David
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:35 am
hook up your speakers and try
http://www.studyspanish.com/pronunciation/vowel_e.htm
from a native Peruvian, or my previous link from a native flamenco singer.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:39 am
@MontereyJack,
I can 't do that. Some heavy objects must be moven.
Someone on my staff will take care of it,
but not at the moment.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:41 am
@MontereyJack,
Do u care to address my response to u ?





David
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:44 am
David, I keep telling you that it's not "payso", which is /peiso/ phonetically but /peso/ without the diphthong, and /e/ phonetically is like a sound that in English is written "a".

Get your poor downtrodden peons on the job, if you can't do it yourself, hook up the speakers, and report back.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:50 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
David, I keep telling you that it's not "payso", which is /peiso/ phonetically but /peso/ without the diphthong, and /e/ phonetically is like a sound that in English is written "a".

Get your poor downtrodden peons on the job, if you can't do it yourself, hook up the speakers, and report back.
I doubt that it will be today,
and my peons are UPtrodden and well off.

For the sake of argument,
if u have someone supporting your beliefs in this matter in that video,
shoud that negate everyone else in my years & decades of contrary experience ?
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 02:43 pm
Anyway, why can't there be more than one way to pronounce something in every language? The regional pronunciations within even a city can range widely so it stands to reason different countries have different pronunciations and there is no right or wrong.

You're making me laugh, David, being so stuck on how to 'correctly' pronounce /e/ when you spell fonetically Smile and only selectively at that.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:12 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
Anyway, why can't there be more than one way to pronounce something in every language? The regional pronunciations within even a city can range widely so it stands to reason different countries have different pronunciations and there is no right or wrong.
I coud see the point, if a dialect were being expressed,
but that is not the case. It is simply a very foolish sounding American accent
in an awkward use of Spanish by those Americans who don 't know better.


Mame wrote:
You're making me laugh, David, being so stuck on how to 'correctly'
pronounce /e/ when you spell fonetically Smile and only selectively at that.
English is a nearly, almost fonetic language,
in that the overwhelming majority of its words
are indeed fully fonetic, with no problem,
but there is a small percentage of words that we
still need to modernize (e.g. enuf is atavisticly misspelled: enough, and tho is misspelled thoUGH)
and it is conspicuously nonsensical to spell F as "ph". In language, there is nothing preventing
us from correcting old errors.



On the other hand,
Spanish is an almost 100% perfect simple fonetic language
whose letter E is never twisted into an A.

In the same spirit that u do not wanna arrive
at a formal affair with mud, nor colorful paint
staining your evening attire, so also u shoud avoid
embarrassing vocal distortions of Spanish,
so that those to whom it is a first language
will NOT make fun of u and laff at u after u have left.





David
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 05:08 pm
@Mame,
Mame: You make perfect sense.
@David: You should (shud?) know (gno?) better (beddah?)
I can introduce you to six people from my neighborhood, all speakers of Spanish, but since one is from the DR, one is from Puerto Rico, one from Ecuador, another from Peru, one born and raised by Puerto Rican parents here in USA and one from Arragon, Spain----ALL of them have dialectical differences, even on the most basic of words.
The woman from Arragon's speech is nearly musical to my poor-tuned ear, but ALL of the others insist that THEIRS is the correct inflection.
<sigh>
Joe(reason #1 why Spanish is not the common language English is)Nation
 

Related Topics

There is a word for that! - Discussion by wandeljw
Best Euphemism for death and dying.... - Discussion by tsarstepan
Let pupils abandon spelling rules, says academic - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Question by lululucy
phrase/name of male seducer - Question by Zah03
Shameful sexist languge must be banned! - Question by neologist
Three Word Phrase I REALLY Hate to See - Discussion by hawkeye10
Is History an art or a science? - Question by Olivier5
"Rooms" in a cave - Question by shua
 
Copyright © 2023 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 02/04/2023 at 08:05:34