57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 08:16 am
@JTT,
Quote:
The people who protested during the Vietnam Illegal Invasion were much the same as those you term "internet generals". Daniel Ellsberg performed a tremendously patriotic deed by exposing the lies of that generation of presidents. He was an internet general before his time.


Illegal invasion?

Another ruling from the international court you are running from your bedroom?


Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 09:20 am
@hingehead,
No, I'm not going to respond to your diatribe in kind.

You obviously spent time constructing your reply, despite the fact that I bore you, so good on you for perseverence. Now that you've had your say, I hope you feel better.

For future reference, the torchlight wanker bit is a clever insult, but it would have been more effective if it wasn't so obscure that you needed to explain it to your target. Or when you originally lobbed it, were you caught up in your own little dance under the sheets?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 09:53 am
@failures art,
Interesting, indeed. I hope Mr Gelb has the ear of someone in the White House.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 09:57 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Very tasty Finn.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  5  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 09:58 am
@msolga,
Quote:
To me, it looks like neither the US government, nor the Yemeni government, comes out of this with much credit.

They colluded to cover-up the loss of civilian lives as a result of these US drone attacks in Yemen.


I agree that neither party comes out with much credit, but why do you assume the intention of the collusion was to cover up the loss of civilian life? I believe the intention of the collusion was to disguise the fact that the US was actively participating in strikes within the Yemini borders. Agreeing with FA, I assume that there's a reason that each of these groups wanted that fact kept under wraps. We can guess all we want as to what motivated both sides, but at this point that's all they would be.
wandeljw
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 10:19 am
From the Wikipedia entry on Journalism Ethics and Standards:
Quote:
Journalism ethics and standards comprise principles of ethics and of good practice as applicable to the specific challenges faced by journalists. Historically and currently, this subset of media ethics is widely known to journalists as their professional "code of ethics" or the "canons of journalism". The basic codes and canons commonly appear in statements drafted by both professional journalism associations and individual print, broadcast, and online news organizations.

While various existing codes have some differences, most share common elements including the principles of — truthfulness, accuracy, objectivity, impartiality, fairness and public accountability — as these apply to the acquisition of newsworthy information and its subsequent dissemination to the public.

Like many broader ethical systems, journalism ethics include the principle of "limitation of harm." This often involves the withholding of certain details from reports such as the names of minor children, crime victims' names or information not materially related to particular news reports release of which might, for example, harm someone's reputation.

Some journalistic Codes of Ethics, notably the European ones, also include a concern with discriminatory references in news based on race, religion, sexual orientation, and physical or mental disabilities. The European Council approved in 1993 Resolution 1003 on the Ethics of Journalism which recommends journalists to respect yet the presumption of innocence, in particular in cases that are still sub judice.


If WikiLeaks is to be considered a news organization, have they also published a statement on standards and practices?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 10:21 am
@BillRM,
Yes, illegal invasion. I read Daniel Ellsberg's book which reveals all the lies created to start that war. You should do the same, before coming to wrong conclusions.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 10:39 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Here's a copy of the leaked cables, Finn.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/226663
Tell us what you make of them.


First, I think we may need to determine if we are using a term uniformly: Pressure.

My take on our discussion thus far is that the term, as it is being used, carries a fairly strong negative connotation and implies threats, veiled or otherwise.

I think this in keeping with the way the Guardian uses the term here:

Quote:
News that the Americans sought to pressure Jagland, the former prime minister of Norway, to prevent him from criticising secret renditions is likely to anger many in Europe, who see the council's role in protecting human rights from counter-terrorism policy as crucial.


Pressure, in the context of threats, would undoubtedly anger many, if not most, in Europe.

Elswhere the Guardian uses the term "press." I think we can agree that "press" and "pressure" are not synonomous, and I'm not sure anyone would be angered by the officials of one government "pressing" officals of their own.

This what diplomats do, they inform, explain, cajole, debate, argue, negotiate, offer, horse-trade, incent, and press. In terms of this scope of activities the term "diplomatic pressure," is often used without intent to imply threat.

I'm sure diplomats also deliver implicit and even explicit threats, but after reading the cables in their entirety, I still see no reason to draw the conclusion that US officials planned on pressuring Jagland with implicit or explicit threat.

Individually, we can make our own assumptions about the intent of the US officals, but they should have a credible basis. The Guardian, if it is going to abide by journalistic standards should not be entertaining such assumptions in their news reporting.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  4  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:15 am
One of the difficulties in discussing the specific cables is the extent to which people bring prior assumptions to them and then seek to justify those assumptions by the text they are reading. Sometimes the effort to justify has been downright heroic.

If you approach these cables with an anti-American (government) sentiment, you will almost assuredly find reason to have that sentiment reinforced, even if you have to extrapolate or create from whole cloth.

If anyone should be embarrassed by the cables related to Yemen it should be Saleh. If anyone should be annoyed, angered or outraged by these cables, it should be the Yemeni people.

The cables reveal that Saleh, very willingly, agreed to claim American attacks as his own. There is no evidence that the US manipulated him in the sense that it caused him to do something which he was not willing to do or would not have done given different circumstances.

Although there may very well have been an effort to cover-up civilian deaths, these cables do not reveal it.

People will form their own opinions about the drone attacks. Assuming you feel they are reprehensible, I don't see how they are any worse because the US arranged with Saleh to have him lay claim to them. It is quite possible that this is only way he would allow them to conduct the attacks, and that he was not manipulated in the least.

I doubt even the strongest critics of the US and/or Yemen contend that civilian deaths were the goal of the drone attacks (I could be surprised though), and so to the extent there is an ethical/legal issue involved I think it reduces to:

1) Is is ethical/legal to kill the al-Qaeda leaders who are the targets of these attacks?
2) Is it ethical/legal to kill "innocent" civilians if the elimination of the target cannot be otherwise accomplished?

I don't think the cables shed light on these questions but it appears that some would like to add a third question

3) Is it ethical/legal for the Yemeni government to accept responsibility for these attacks when they were actually launched by the US?

The answer to this 3rd question will not help to answer questions 1 and 2, and pales by comparison.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:15 am
What's "sibel?"
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:20 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

What's "sibel?"


A given female turkish name. Why the thread's been tagged with it? No clue.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
i believe it refers to Sibel Edmonds
http://www.justacitizen.com/
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:44 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

i believe it refers to Sibel Edmonds
http://www.justacitizen.com/


If so that's an obscure tag.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:48 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
if i'm not mistaken there was some mention of her in the first half of the thread, someone must have thought it was important
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 11:53 am
@djjd62,
JTT discussed edmonds case being dismissed here
http://able2know.org/topic/164540-8#post-4430594
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 12:06 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Journalism ethics and standards comprise principles of ethics and of good practice as applicable to the specific challenges faced by journalists.


Which statement, as bold as it is timorous, means nothing.

Journalists in England are known as "vipers" and "hacks" and calls their official abode " Grub Street".

Any principles are imposed upon them by law. The practice of them should not be confused with an understanding and ccompassionate heart.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 12:49 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

if i'm not mistaken there was some mention of her in the first half of the thread, someone must have thought it was important


Perhaps. I don't pay attention to tags. Chi-Joe asked what a "sibel" was and the only reference I could find was in tags.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 01:00 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
but mostly because mistakes were made and civilians lost.


The old cliche. It's been in use for a couple of centuries now and it still does yeoman service.

Let's try some honesty.

but mostly because the USA cares little to not at all about civilians lost.

Quote:
So you blow up a suspected Taliban site and kill two of their commanders – but you also kill 98 women and children, whose families are from that day determined to kill your men and drive them out of their country. Those aren't hypothetical numbers. They come from Lt. Col. David Kilcullen, who was General Petraeus' counter-insurgency advisor in Iraq. He says that US aerial attacks on the Afghan-Pakistan border have killed 14 al-Qa'ida leaders, at the expense of more than 700 civilian lives. He says: "That's a hit rate of 2 per cent on 98 per cent collateral. It's not moral." It explains the apparent paradox that broke the US in Vietnam: the more "bad guys" you kill, the more you have to kill.


You, and you're hardly the only one, are way too glib in discussions about the lives of people of other countries.

Quote:
Everything You Have Been Told About Afghanistan Is Wrong

Posted by Johann Hari on Tuesday, October 20, 2009

Is Barack Obama about to drive his Presidency into a bloody ditch strewn with corpses? The President is expected any day now to announce his decision about the future of the war in Afghanistan. He knows US and British troops have now been stationed in the hell-mouth of Helmand longer than the First and Second World Wars combined – yet the mutterings from the marble halls of Washington DC suggest he may order a troop escalation.

Obama has to decide now whether to side with the American people and the Afghan people calling for a rapid reduction in US force, or with a small military clique demanding a ramping-up of the conflict. The populations of both countries are in close agreement. The latest Washington Post poll shows that 51 per cent of Americans say the war is "not worth fighting" and that ending the foreign occupation will "reduce terrorism". Only 27 per cent disagree. At the other end of the gun-barrel, 77 per cent of Afghans in the latest BBC poll say the on-going US air strikes are "unacceptable", and the US troops should only remain if they are going to provide reconstruction assistance rather than bombs.

But there is another side: General Stanley McCrystal says that if he is given another 40,000 troops – on top of the current increase which has pushed military levels above anything in the Bush years – he will "finally win" by "breaking the back" of the Taliban and al-Qa'ida.

How should Obama – and us, the watching world – figure out who is right? We have to start from a hard-headed acknowledgement. Every option from here entails a risk – to Afghan civilians, and to Americans and Europeans. It is not possible to achieve absolute safety. We can only try to figure out what would bring the least risk, and pursue it.

There is obviously a huge risk in sending an extra 40,000 machine-gun wielding troops into a country they don't understand to "clear" huge areas of insurgent fighters who look exactly like the civilian population, and establish "control" of places that have never been controlled by a central government at any point in their history.

Every military counter-insurgency strategy hits up against the probability that it will, in time, create more enemies than it kills. So you blow up a suspected Taliban site and kill two of their commanders – but you also kill 98 women and children, whose families are from that day determined to kill your men and drive them out of their country. Those aren't hypothetical numbers. They come from Lt. Col. David Kilcullen, who was General Petraeus' counter-insurgency advisor in Iraq. He says that US aerial attacks on the Afghan-Pakistan border have killed 14 al-Qa'ida leaders, at the expense of more than 700 civilian lives. He says: "That's a hit rate of 2 per cent on 98 per cent collateral. It's not moral." It explains the apparent paradox that broke the US in Vietnam: the more "bad guys" you kill, the more you have to kill.

There is an even bigger danger than this. General Petraeus's strategy is to drive the Taliban out of Afghanistan. When he succeeds, they run to Pakistan – where the nuclear bombs are.

To justify these risks, the proponents of the escalation need highly persuasive arguments to show how their strategy slashed other risks so dramatically that it outweighed these dangers. It's not inconceivable – but I found that in fact the case they give for escalating the war, or for continuing the occupation, is based on three premises that turn to Afghan dust on inspection.

Argument One: We need to deprive al-Qa'ida of military bases in Afghanistan, or they will use them to plot attacks against us, and we will face 9/11 redux. In fact, virtually all the jihadi attacks against Western countries have been planned in those Western countries themselves, and required extremely limited technological capabilities or training. The 9/11 atrocities were planned in Hamburg and Florida by 19 Saudis who only needed to know how to use box-cutters and to crash a plane. The 7/7 suicide-murders were planned in Yorkshire by young British men who learned how to make bombs off the internet. Only last week, a jihadi was arrested for plotting to blow up a skyscraper in that notorious jihadi base, Dallas, Texas. And on, and on.

In reality, there are almost no al-Qa'ida fighters in Afghanistan. That's not my view: it's that of General Jim Jones, the US National Security Advisor. He said recently there are 100 al-Qa'ida fighters in Afghanistan. That's worth repeating: there are 100 al-Qa'ida fighters in Afghanistan. Nor is that a sign that the war is working. The Taliban or warlords friendly to them already control 40 per cent of Afghanistan now, today. They can build all the "training camps" they want there – but they have only found a hundred fundamentalist thugs to staff them.

Even if – and this is highly unlikely – you could plug every hole in the Afghan state's authority and therefore make it possible to shut down every camp, there are a dozen other failed states they can scuttle off to the next day and pitch some more tents. Again, that's not my view. Leon Panetta, head of the CIA, says: "As we disrupt [al-Qa'ida], they will seek other safe havens. Somalia and Yemen are potential al-Qa'ida bases in the future." The US can't occupy every failed state in the world for decades – so why desperately try to plug one hole in a bath full of leaks, when the water will only seep out anyway?

There are plenty of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan – but they are a different matter to al-Qa'ida. The latest leaked US intelligence reports say, according to the Boston Globe, that 90 per cent of them are "a tribal, localised insurgency" who "see themselves as opposing the US because it is an occupying power". They have "no goals" beyond Afghanistan's borders.

Argument Two: By staying, we are significantly improving Afghan human rights, especially for women. This, for me, is the meatiest argument – and the most depressing. The Taliban are indeed one of the vilest forces in the world, imprisoning women in their homes and torturing them for the "crimes" of showing their faces, expressing their sexuality, or being raped. They keep trying to murder my friend Malalai Joya for the "crime" of being elected to parliament on a platform of treating women like human beings not cattle.

But as she told me last month: "Your governments have replaced the fundamentalist rule of the Taliban with another fundamentalist regime of warlords." Outside Kabul, vicious Taliban who enforce sharia law have merely been replaced by vicious warlords who enforce sharia law. "The situation now is as catastrophic as it was under the Taliban for women," she said. Any Afghan president – Karzai, or his opponents – will only ever in practice be the mayor of Kabul. Beyond is a sea of warlordism, as evil to women as Mullah Omar. That is not a difference worth fighting and dying for.

Argument Three: If we withdraw, it will be a great victory for al-Qa'ida. Re-energised, they will surge out across the world. In fact, in November 2004, Osama bin Laden bragged to his followers: "All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen [jihadi fighters] to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written "al-Qa'ida" in order to make generals race there, and we cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses – without their achieving anything of note!" These wars will, he said, boost al-Qa'ida recruitment across the world, and in time "bankrupt America". They walked right into his trap.

Yes, there is real risk in going – but it is dwarfed by the risk of staying. A bloody escalation in the war is more likely to fuel jihadism than thwart it. If Obama is serious about undermining this vile fanatical movement, it would be much wiser to take the hundreds of billions he is currently squandering on chasing after a hundred fighters in the Afghan mountains and redeploy it. Spend it instead on beefing up policing and intelligence, and on building a network of schools across Pakistan and other flash-points in the Muslim world, so parents there have an alternative to the fanatical madrassahs that churn out bin Laden-fodder. The American people will be far safer if the world sees them building schools for Muslim kids instead of dropping bombs on them.

He can explain – with his tongue dipped in amazing eloquence – that trying to defeat al-Qa'ida with hundreds of thousands of occupying troops and Predator jets is like trying to treat cancer with a blowtorch. Now, that really would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.

http://www.johannhari.com/2009/10/21/everything-you-have-been-told-about-afghanistan-is-wrong

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 02:02 pm
@JTT,
That's the reason presidents who have never served doesn't understand wars. They sit at their desks in DC to decide how to placate the generals in all the services, and end up making all the wrong decisions. They have no sensitivity for collateral damage, and the thousands of innocent people killed in foreign lands. They cry bloody murder when 3,000 of ours are attacked and killed, and even start false wars to placate the American people.

They're all criminals with no conscience.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2010 02:24 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
No, I'm not going to respond to your diatribe in kind.

Hah. But you do, and ignoring the point that I was responding to your post http://able2know.org/topic/164540-79#post-4447335

Quote:
You obviously spent time constructing your reply, despite the fact that I bore you, so good on you for perseverence. Now that you've had your say, I hope you feel better.

Well I did spend some time last night (had a lovely weekend with Mrs Hinge that didn't involve computers) searching for the quotes you'd 'obviously' spent time finding, so I could expose your selective truth telling, obfuscation and sidetracking. Which again you indulge in - nice attempt to belittle a person for actually seeking evidence to defend against your accusations. Yep. I'll persevere. If I see you do it, I'll call you on it. The price of liberty etc...

Quote:
For future reference, the torchlight wanker bit is a clever insult, but it would have been more effective if it wasn't so obscure that you needed to explain it to your target. Or when you originally lobbed it, were you caught up in your own little dance under the sheets?


You could replace that last paragraph with 'Same to you. Nyaah.' Smile
 

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