57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 04:44 pm
@msolga,
Why shouldn't we know about US government directives like this?
Who is harmed, or embarrassed, by us knowing?:


Quote:
Washington is running a secret intelligence campaign targeted at the leadership of the United Nations, including the secretary general, Ban Ki-moon and the permanent security council representatives from China, Russia, France and the UK.

A classified directive which appears to blur the line between diplomacy and spying was issued to US diplomats under Hillary Clinton's name in July 2009, demanding forensic technical details about the communications systems used by top UN officials, including passwords and personal encryption keys used in private and commercial networks for official communications.

It called for detailed biometric information "on key UN officials, to include undersecretaries, heads of specialised agencies and their chief advisers, top SYG [secretary general] aides, heads of peace operations and political field missions, including force commanders" as well as intelligence on Ban's "management and decision-making style and his influence on the secretariat". A parallel intelligence directive sent to diplomats in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi said biometric data included DNA, fingerprints and iris scans.

Washington also wanted credit card numbers, email addresses, phone, fax and pager numbers and even frequent-flyer account numbers for UN figures and "biographic and biometric information on UN Security Council permanent representatives". ....


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 05:10 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
....why did we decide to publish these articles and selected cables?

BECAUSE WE CAN


Or simply because we have the right to have access to such information?
Why shouldn't we know what or our elected governments are actually doing?
Surely it is in the best interests of democracy for us to know?:


Quote:
... All governments have a legitimate right to protect national security. This should be a specific, and closely scrutinised, area of policy. Most of our secrecy rules are designed merely to protect politicians and officials from embarrassment. Documents are habitually over-classified for this purpose. The previous (UK) government made desperate attempts to stop legal evidence of its collusion in torture from reaching the public. Ministers argued, speciously, that this was to protect the "special intelligence relationship" with Washington. .....

As with all free speech, as with Wikileaks, context is key. It is vital to know when governments collude in torture or other illegal acts. It is important to know when they say one thing in private (about a particular world leader) and do quite another in public. It is perturbing to know that aid agencies may have been used by the military, particularly in Afghanistan, to help Nato forces to "win hearts and minds".

These questions, and more, are vital for the democratic debate. The answers inevitably cause embarrassment. That too is essential for a healthy civil society. Good journalists and editors should be capable of separating the awkward from the damaging. Information that could endanger life, either in the short term or as part of a longer-term operation, should remain secret. ....


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/john-kampfner-wikileaks-shows-up-our-media-for-their-docility-at-the-feet-of-authority-2146211.html


First of all, the right to know everything your government is doing or has done is not provided by any "law of the land" with which I am familiar.

Secondly, it is not in the best interest of the nation for every citizen to know everything the government is doing or has done.

Finally, I don't trust so-called good journalists or editors to separate the awkward from the damaging. Can Assange be considered either and certainly he has proven he can't be trusted? (Someone on this thread likened him to Robin Hood)

I'm not in favor of the government keeping all of its decision making and actions secret, but I know that somethings must be kept secret, and flooding everything with public light is irresponsible and quite possibly very harmful.

Wikileaks and Assange are not about shining light on government secrets they believe may be harmful, they are about assuming that all government secrets are harmful and doing all they can to expose them.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 05:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Wikileaks and Assange are not about shining light on government secrets they believe may be harmful, they are about assuming that all government secrets are harmful and doing all they can to expose them.


But you are all about shining light, aren't you, Finn? Let's just let the light tells us that.

Quote:
Finally, I don't trust so-called good journalists or editors to separate the awkward from the damaging. Can Assange be considered either and certainly he has proven he can't be trusted? (Someone on this thread likened him to Robin Hood)


More like Daniel Ellsberg and the three young American patriots who leaked the material.

Your extreme right wing stance told us all that long ago, Finn. You still keep trying to downplay the evil by repeating this same tired old nonsense. No will will really care about one diplomat expressing a desire to diddle another or some foreign government leader. But the evil must be exposed.

But wait, maybe there is no evil because you, Finn, have made no mention of it.


0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 05:49 pm
Good morning, Msolga et al:
After 9/11, it was realized that there was a big flaw about information sharing within the U.S. government. A minor official in the State department might file a little report up the chain of command which then might go to the agency responsible for aviation safety which would go down the chain of command there.
A new, supposedly secure, system was set up where reports could be seen by interested employees in other agencies with access clearance.
Sounds good, so far. But something like 2.5M employees had access to those posts. And some/many of those were expected to post something everyday.
Everyday.
I suspect that I would resort to writing what passes for droll wit. You, msolga, might post political cartoons.
Certainly there is some serious stuff in the Wikileaks thing, mostly concerning the view of Iran from other Arab countries.
But most of the embarrassment is about the portrayals of some foreign leaders by the writers killing time.
It seems to me that there is a certain voyeurism from those following the reports that outweighs anything of note.
Kind of like a bloke waking up and finding out what he said to his mother-in-law after too many Foster's the night before.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 05:56 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
But most of the embarrassment is about the portrayals of some foreign leaders by the writers killing time.


i found myself not at all surprised by the quotes i've read about world leaders, i don't know if they're true, but they don't surprise me one bit, i think they're honest assessments, at least in the mind of the assessor, lets face it, some folks think the cool kids are the bees knees, and folks like me think they're douche bags, i'm not "killing time" by saying that i'm expressing my opinion, much like the line that Prince Andrew is "rude and cocky", i bet he is, he's an entitled rich kid, most are pricks to some extent
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well I definitely favour transparency, Finn.
While I may not actually be interested in every single minuscule detail of what my own government is doing (both internally & in foreign policy areas), I want to be assured that its doing what it says it's doing .. not something quite different. I'd imagine most citizens of other democratic countries would feel pretty much the same way. Far better to know what's actually going on at the time, than say 30 years down the track, when the embargo on such classified information is lifted.

Yes, I do understand that some information (ie security information) might be best kept from public scrutiny, but I'd argue that a government directive to spy on the UN leadership, for example, is in a different category to that type of concern.

Regarding the publication of latest (& previous (Iraq) Wikileaks) I'd argue that the news media which released the information (the Guardian, NYTimes, Der Spiegel, etc) have in fact acted responsibly. I think they're gone to great lengths to publish responsibly. They've supplied us with information that we're entitled to have access to, in my opinion. Whatever your opinion of of Julian Assange & Wikileaks might be.

Can I ask if there are any specific examples of information you've come across in the the current & previous Wikileaks that you believe we shouldn't have had access to?




JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:17 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
I'd imagine most citizens of other democratic countries would feel pretty much the same way.


Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. Even when a goodly number of Americans are informed that their president has committed war crimes, has trained proxies to torture, rape and murder women and children, the response isn't even a tepid meh.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:17 pm
I just saw this on Twitter:
Quote:
Oh sweet irony -- US congressman who raised funds for the IRA wants Wikileaks to be classified as terrorists http://politi.co/e0d1fe :-D


Is there any veracity to that claim? Did Peter King raise funds for the IRA?
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:18 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Can I ask if there are any specific examples of information you've come across in the the current & previous Wikileaks that you believe we shouldn't have had access to?

Your question was addressed to Finn, but I would probably say "No." As long as it is made clear that much of the stuff made public were musings by people who are paid to muse about "what if?"
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:20 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Is there any veracity to that claim? Did Peter King raise funds for the IRA?


Is this a genuine question, HH?
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:21 pm
@JTT,
Yeah, I'm not a US citizen - have a made some sort of faux pas?
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:29 pm
@hingehead,
I realize that you're not American, HH. About the only faux pas you might have made is raising the specter of Americans being terrorists.

Quote:
The United States and the IRA

The IRA was a genuine terrorist group, but it was listed as such by our government most of all because it was a sworn enemy of one of our closest allies. The record seems clear: terrorist groups that are useful to us or harmful to states we officially oppose are given a pass, while those that target us or our allies are condemned in the strongest terms. That’s the nature of things in the real world, I suppose, but it is something that none of the reponses to the counterfactual seems to be taking into account. Had things gone very differently in the last century and London and Washington became enemies once more, it is very easy to imagine that the IRA or similar groups would have been made into anti-British proxies of the U.S. government.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassie/3239896/the-united-states-and-the-ira.thtml

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:57 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Your question was addressed to Finn, but I would probably say "No." As long as it is made clear that much of the stuff made public were musings by people who are paid to muse about "what if?"

Hi RJB.
Very unusual to be talking to you on a thread not about an election in one country or another. Smile

No, I couldn't come across much that should have been kept from us, either.

I've been reading the latest Wikileaks in a bit of depth, in a variety of different countries' online news sites, over the past couple of days. Fascinating reading, especially the details of behind the scenes wheelings & dealings, I've gotta say. Like in one of today's NYT's lead stories, U.S. Haggled to Find Takers for Detainees From Guantánamo:.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/world/americas/30gitmo.html?_r=1&hp

But I do think there's more to a number of the leaks than just "what ifs". (I hope I'm clear on what you mean by "what ifs". Maybe not.)
I haven't much time now as I have to go out very soon. But off the top of my head ... There was one instance (for which I can't find the details of right now) of a US attack on a Al Quaida (sp?) base in which the country (Yemen???) agreed to take the responsibility for the attack (ie cover for the US), there was (US military) criticism of the UK military effort in Afghanistan, and more.

But I'm fast running out of time here.
Sorry, RJB.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 06:59 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Is there any veracity to that claim? Did Peter King raise funds for the IRA?


Are you shocked, disappointed, relieved, meh, angry, happy, ecstatic, ... ?

I wonder, does Cycloptichorn appreciate the irony.

It's like, after half a century of terrorism against Cuba by the USA, John Bolton stands up and accuses Cuba of being a terrorist state. Now that's really rich irony.

Of course he didn't actually believe it. He was only doing his job, that is, to lie for the US government. Ole George Washington must be rotating wildly in his grave.

Who says leaks can't be fun?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 07:28 pm
Just released from Wikileaks.:

Leaked video shows gunship killing journalists:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/06/2864956.htm
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 29 Nov, 2010 07:40 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Leaked video shows gunship killing journalists:


I wonder if Hilary Clinton will say about this, above,

"Let me be clear, this will not be and cannot be business as usual."

[Clinton said in her first public comments since South Korea released a report on Thursday formally blaming the North for the torpedo strike.]
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2010 02:08 am
From today's Guardian editorial....

Some unforeseen & surprising up-sides to the leaks for the US & also South Korea.

They justify the US sanctions against Iran (according to Hillary Clinton)

And send a clear message to Pyongyang: China would not stop the North Korean regime collapsing after the death of Kim Jong-il. :


Quote:
US embassy cables: hanging North Korea out to dry
Editorial
The Guardian, Tuesday 30 November 2010


If the leaked cables are read and absorbed by Pyongyang, they may instil realism in a dictatorship so clearly lacking it

The US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, last night attempted to limit the damage caused to US diplomacy by the leaking of US embassy cables, which she claimed both endangered the lives of real people – who were used as sources by US diplomats – and tore at the fabric of proper international discourse. Within a few moments of the condemnation, Ms Clinton found herself referring to the contents of the cables as backing for US sanctions on Iran. She said that anyone reading the cables would see that Iran did pose a threat and that its Arab neighbours were concerned about it. Ms Clinton thus elegantly had her cake and ate it – in the same breath attacking the dangerously irresponsible exposure of information while also welcoming evidence that US policy on Iran had wider regional support than was earlier realised. Between the two moments, Ms Clinton also issued a muted apology for the leaks. If anything endangered confidential informers, it was the decision to disseminate their information on an intranet with a potential audience of 3 million.

Nor should we axiomatically accept that the release of this information is harmful. Today's revelation from the embassy cables that North Korea had lost its strategic value to China as a buffer state between their forces and US ones, and that Beijing would accept the reunification of the peninsula under Seoul's leadership, should send shivers down the spine of the right person – the ailing dictator Kim Jong-il. Pyongyang could be about to lose its only insurer. Long before last week's lethal shelling of a South Korean island, it is clear from the private views of senior Chinese officials that their strategic asset had turned into a major liability.

South Korea's vice foreign minister was told by two named Chinese officials that they believed Korea should be reunified under Seoul's control; a Chinese ambassador called North Korea's nuclear activity a threat to the whole world, and China has already calculated how many refugees it could take in from North Korea before closing its borders. This nugget alone should give Pyongyang greater pause for thought than any military exercise near its shores. The implication is clear: as long as US troops stay south of the demilitarised zone that bisects the Korean peninsula, China would not stop the regime collapsing after the death of Kim Jong-il. It had already, in their view, collapsed economically and, despite efforts to secure a succession to the inexperienced youngest son Kim Jong-un, it was likely to collapse politically. If the leaking of these cables was read and absorbed by North Korea's ageing generals, this would be an example of disclosure instilling realism into a military dictatorship which so clearly lacks it. ...<cont>


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/30/us-embassy-cables-north-korea?intcmp=239:
anton
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2010 02:12 am
The newspapers are full of reports condemning and castigating the Wikileaks whistle blower Julian Assange, personally as an Australian I am extremely proud of him for having the guts to stand-up to such an arrogant, two faced regime…. The failed super power the world would be better off without; of course this is the opinion of all my friends and I, all true blue Australians.

Julian Assange should received the Order of Australia and be made Australian of the year for standing up to the world bully, the country that is the cause of most of the troubles in the world today.
This is not meant to be critical, or demeaning of the American people, they are family with the same needs and wants as the rest of us; it is aimed squarely at the current and past leadership of America!

We don’t want your wars and we don’t want to listen to your demonization of those you perceive to be enemies; truth be known you are your own worst enemy with your self-centered opinions and arrogance and my advice to all Americans is, “Tell your government to think of others and try to understand that the rest of the world doesn’t revolve around America." The whole of humanity share the same birthright that says all citizens of the world are equals.”

If you believe your country is being threatened ask yourselves why, if you are suffering from an illness you find out what is causing it and cure that.
Think outside the box!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2010 02:14 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Wikileaks cables reveal China 'ready to abandon North Korea'
Leaked dispatches show Beijing is frustrated with military actions of 'spoiled child' and increasingly favours reunified Korea ...:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-china-reunified-korea?intcmp=239
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Nov, 2010 02:20 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Wikileaks cables reveal China 'ready to abandon North Korea'
just because the chinese say it does not make it true. Have we seen any increase in help from China re N Korea? I dont think so...

Talk is cheap
 

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