57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 11:56 am
@Cycloptichorn,
And anyway--he's a bloke and blokes should stick together to defend a fellow sufferer from the baseless charges of immoral and promiscuous females.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 12:56 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Really?

- The timing
- The overall weakness of the charges - in America he would have been charged with nothing at all
- The fact that at least one of the women apparently wants nothing to do with the prosecution
- The fact that this is a favorite way for governments to smear politically inconvenient people

Throughout history there have been many examples of nefarious activity on the part of various governments which are derided at the time as 'conspiracy theories.' The only question one has to ask themselves is whether or not these governments would take such an action. I totally believe that they would.

Sexual allegations are notoriously hard to either prove or disprove and serve as a vehicle to discredit people in the minds of the weak and lazy. It's the same thing that was done to Ellsberg and I don't find anything about the case to be compelling at all. There's very little actual evidence to convict him of anything - and they know it. One of the reasons that such trials are difficult to prosecute is that you generally can't get convictions based on simply the testimony of one person against another.

I don't know if he's guilty of, well, doing whatever with these women or not; and I really don't care, because what they've described in the media sounds like a guy who is kind of a dick but hardly a rapist.

The timing is simply too incredible to believe. Hard-to-prove charges of molestation are leveled at an incredibly charged international rogue character, who is dangerous to powerful people in both Europe and America? How shocking! Next you'll tell me that the US would intentionally out one of their own spies for political reasons.

I think we have to admit the strong possibility that these charges are in fact politically motivated, because the countries involved have not only a history of doing such things but also motive and opportunity. Those are generally the criteria for accepting a theory's plausibility...

Cycloptichorn


You are going overboard on painting the rape case as "weak". I assume that the women have a legitimate complaint. Even the innocuous-sounding term, "sex by surprise" indicates that consent was lacking. No consent equals rape or "date rape."

The significance of the timing is interpretation. Here is another interpretation: The incident occurred in August after Assange had gotten publicity for last summer's leaks. Assange may have tried to capitalize on his sudden celebrity status with the two women. These women supported his cause, but on a personal level they somehow felt violated by Assange. They understandably complained to the police.

It may be a favorite method of government to smear people with sex charges. It is probably even more common for a public person, accused of a crime, to claim that he is being targeted politically.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 01:22 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
I assume that the women have a legitimate complaint. Even the innocuous-sounding term, "sex by surprise" indicates that consent was lacking. No consent equals rape or "date rape."


According to the Swedish criminal code it certainly was and is a legitimate complain.

The "no consent" was about ... a condom.
One of the women said that he deliberately destroyed a condom when she refused to have unprotected sex with him.
Assange has a different view: that the intercourse was voluntary and that he did not deliberately destroy the condom.

So this would be rape according to US-law as well?
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 01:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
There are other details too. One of the women claim that he used his weight to restrain her. Using physical force is not some weird concept when defining sexual misconduct. It's quite exactly what we think of when we talk about things like rape.

That's a very serious claim. I think it's irresponsible to simply dismiss the allegations.

As for one woman removing herself, I don't think it's fair to read into that is the claims must be false. Lots of women drop charges or back off with private cases. Now take your case to the global stage and have millions of people accusing you of being a liar and a part of a conspiracy. I'd be intimidated too. We all would. Especially when your lawyer's office is receiving threats and there have been attempts at hacking them.

I conceded that the timing is suspicious, but I think serious allegations deserve to be taken seriously. It is wrong to assume so much about these women. Who knows if the investigation will even lead to formal charges.

As I've stated before, and as more time passes I become more confident I'm correct: Assange isn't going to be coming to the USA for trial. I base this on the fact that nobody gains political capital by bringing him back here for trial. On top of that, the US media has already moved on to other stories (such is their nature) and so for the USG to flare up more attention to this only hurts them. Assange played his cards well in terms of strategy, and he's not going to prison. I think the twitter business will not reveal that Assange asked Manning to give him the data. I believe this, because Assange is not a stupid man. It is very apparent that he has great care to detail and knows how to protect himself.

The US may want Assange, but lets not assume that Sweden only wants him for our sake. If they want him, then it is to their own benefit somehow. This is why I found the Ukraine protest to be of target. I'd say, either protest in front of the US embassy about US actions, or protest in front of Swedish embassy about Swedish actions. As of now, the message to the Swedish inside the embassy is: Whatever you do, we will blame someone else. That's not going to be vary compelling to them.

Note: post is addressed to walter but I was responding to cyclo's post as well.

A
R
T
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 02:17 pm
@failures art,
Of course it is a serious.
But nevertheless: it wouldn't be rape e.g. here in Germany, because some key requirements seem to be missing. (The Swedish term "olaga tvång" [sexual assault] seems to be different to our similar http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGBengl_000P177][b]German[/b] as well.)

But again: that's just our law. And it certainly could be that that some prosecutors here would like to try to accuse someone in a similar situation of "sexual assault". (Not rape since 'rape' here a clearly different definition.) In that case, it would be to the court if it accepts this.

But, in Rome, do it as the Romans do.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 02:39 pm
Judging from the last three posters every bloke in the country should be in jail. Unless the ridiculous strictures, so wrought and touching, are only meant to apply in those circumstances which have been pruriently retailed in the various organs of media the posters concerned have so evidently pored over and used, rather selectively it must be said, and with a degree of relish, to express their laudable empathy for the plight of Girl Guides, virgin choiristers and daughters of pious Darwinians everywhere.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 02:53 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Judging from the last three posters every bloke in the country should be in jail.


You definitely judged me wrong, spendi.

Even in the worst case here (= sexual assault), even with a very hard judging court, you most certainly wouldn't get more than two years suspension of sentence on probation. (I guess, it would be usually something between a fine and six months, though.)
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 02:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
What? A criminal record for lying on top of somebody who mixes in such circles and has probably had more pricks than a second-hand dartboard.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 03:03 pm
@spendius,
When I've worked with the prosecution, they've always told me that I had a heart of gold ...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jan, 2011 03:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes--I can see why they would say such things. There are other explanations of course but I shouldn't think they apply in your case Walt.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2011 10:53 am
Yhe Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs is an independent, nonprofit, educational institution serving international affairs professionals, teachers and students, and the attentive public.

0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sun 16 Jan, 2011 01:45 pm
Quote:
LONDON — A Swiss banker whose actions caused a U.S. judge to briefly shut down WikiLeaks three years ago has promised to hand over a trove of banking secrets to the secret-spilling organization on Monday, a U.K. newspaper reported.

Releasing the bank details of 2,000 "high net worth individuals" and companies could reveal huge potential tax evasion, The Observer reported on Sunday.

Both American and British firms and individuals, including about "40 politicians," will be implicated, Rudolf Elmer, a former employee of Swiss-based Bank Julius Baer, told the newspaper. Source
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 09:48 am
Quote:
Swiss Banker Who Helped WikiLeaks Faces Trial
(The Associated Press, January 10, 2011)

A Swiss banker whose actions caused a U.S. judge to briefly shut down WikiLeaks three years ago goes on trial next week for distributing confidential documents.

Rudolf Elmer has been ordered to appear before a Zurich regional court on Jan. 19 to answer charges of coercion and violating Switzerland's strict banking secrecy laws. If convicted, he could be sentenced to up to three years in prison and fined.

Elmer's release of files from the Swiss-based bank Julius Baer's offshore operations in the Cayman Islands prompted a U.S. judge to temporarily shut down WikiLeaks in 2008. The order was lifted following complaints from free speech groups and media organizations.


This news story precedes the latest news story by a week, but maybe there is a connection.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 10:08 am
@wandeljw,
And the latest ...
Quote:

Jan 17, 2011 - 14:07
Ex-Swiss banker hands over files to WikiLeaks

A former Swiss banker on Monday handed over documents to WikiLeaks that he claims detail attempts by wealthy business leaders and lawmakers to evade tax payments.

Rudolf Elmer, a former employee of Bank Julius Bär, said the account holders included “high net worth” celebrities, business leaders and lawmakers from the United States, Britain and Asia.

The founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, appeared with Elmer in London to collect the files, and praised the ex-banker’s attempts to expose alleged shady practices in the financial industry.

Assange said that, with his organisation now publishing about 250,000 diplomatic cables, it could be several weeks before Elmer's files are reviewed and posted on the WikiLeaks website.

Elmer, who has previously leaked banking documents to WikiLeaks, which posts confidential information on its site from mainly anonymous sources, told journalists that he wanted to expose the offshore banking system. “I want to let society know how this system works. It's damaging society,” he said.

His decision to release the new files to WikiLeaks comes two days before he is due to appear before a Zurich regional court to answer charges of coercion and violating Switzerland’s banking secrecy laws.

Elmer said he would not reveal what specifically was in the documents, and said that he personally would not disclose “individual companies or individual names” of the account holders.

Assange has made few public appearances since he was released on bail on December 16 following his arrest on an extradition warrant issued by Sweden.

swissinfo.ch and agencies
Source
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 10:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Where's the beef Walt? Making our mouths water is cruel. Inhumane even.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 10:36 am
@Walter Hinteler,
From the news item provided by Walter:
Quote:
His decision to release the new files to WikiLeaks comes two days before he is due to appear before a Zurich regional court to answer charges of coercion and violating Switzerland’s banking secrecy laws.


Could this be a "poison pill" from Rudolf Elmer?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 10:52 am
@wandeljw,
Dunno wande. Who's Rudolf Elmer?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 11:44 am
@wandeljw,
Before, quite a few cd's with similar data but from Liechtenstein were sold to various tax authorities in various countries ... seems, Elmer doesn't want to make money out of it like the others.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 11:50 am
@Walter Hinteler,
In that case he must be a wanker.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Jan, 2011 03:05 pm
@spendius,
Are you going down, Spendi? Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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