Truth is a choice

@Chights47,

Very good logic indeed! I hope you stick around and teach us some more truth. Smile

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@north,

I think that you are correct!

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@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Very good logic indeed! I hope you stick around and teach us some more truth.

agreed should be interesting

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Like I said. Truth is a human invention. It relates to what we know and what we experience. Remove us, and truth is a non-issue.

I have a different question then. Do you exist? I'm stating this as a truth but, since this is a human invention, it shouldn't exist...yet it does. If you take away both of us (humans) then how was it written, who or what is it about, and why would anyone then care? If you remove you, then what am I responding to in the first place and how are you able to argue anything? This option would be impossible for you though, since you can't deny your own existence. If you remove me, then you can't comment back because then you would be admitting my existence.

I don't think that my logic is flawed in this, but I would appreciate any thoughts about this.

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@reasoning logic,

I have read that text about OCPD before. Interesting. But even though this condition is related to a person's personal philosophy it is not a danger of doing philosophy, as I see it. It is more a matter of not doing philosophy and questioning one's beliefs.

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@Chights47,

Like I said, truth is about ideas. If you start talking about "what actually is the case regardless of what we think" you are moving beyond the realm of the knowable, and truth, in this perspective, is as illusive and intangible as "god".

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@Chights47,

Perhaps it is easy to misunderstand when I say "remove us". What I mean is that if you remove any function of knower (humans are this function), truth is not. It is a categorization made by knowers. If you want to use the term beyond that it is about as real as god, and for the same reasons; belief.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Fido wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

Sometimes, if you skip from one conceptual level to another, it is easy to make errors and arrive at misconceptions.

So what??? No definition means no conception... So; what is truth??? The truth is something we need enough of to survive, something that is our due, and something that if denied to us does us an injury...

The essential of what can be said of truth for me is precisely that we can´t deny who we are...

Our lives is who we are, and truth is the most essential element of that, and everyone needs enough of it whether of moral truth, or physical truth... We all need enough...

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Perhaps it is easy to misunderstand when I say "remove us". What I mean is that if you remove any function of knower (humans are this function), truth is not. It is a categorization made by knowers. If you want to use the term beyond that it is about as real as god, and for the same reasons; belief.

I still don't quite understand the logic. I think I understand what you're trying to say, it just doesn't really make sense to me. When you say "knower's" do you mean any sentient beings? I'll assume that's what you mean for the purpose of this post. If that's the case, then I don't agree, just because somethings not known, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If something exists, there must be at least some truth about it. There are so many things that we don't even know exists, but does that mean they don't exist 'because' we don't know? If that is the case then are we gods ourselves and create whatever we believe is true from nothing just because we say it's true? The only way I can possible imagine that working is if we are alone in this world and everything around us is a figment of our imaginations.

1 Reply

@Chights47,

I think it is pretty safe to say sentient beings instead of knowers. What I am thinking is that truth is something that exists in the relationship between us (the observing and categorizing agents of our perception) and what we percieve to be the objects of our perception. In this relationship there can be truth, but without some kind of relationship in which reality is negotiated, truth seems to become a void concept.
Perhaps we can say that truth can never be objective because it is a negotiation between subjects. If two comets crash they will "negotiate" the outcome, and the outcome will be truth. But what precicely happened if there are no observers who care to categorize these phenomena?

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@Cyracuz,

well this is a big step in coming together with my own understanding...now you just have to enlarge the concept of "observer" to where I am standing at...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Meaning no disrespect, Fil, it is not a goal of mine to conform to your understanding. Wink

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@Cyracuz,

Nor it was that my intention...sorry if it came out that way...is just that suddenly your discourse on the matter seems to be more "solid" like...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I understood that, Fil. I just couldn't resist Smile

What do you mean with expanding on "observer"?

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@Cyracuz,

I just simply put mean that any form of relation is a form of observation...that lesser or higher complex patterns are the only difference that I can recognize to it...to where I stand an atom can be an observer at is own level and layer of functional extension...(where its operative behaviour can have "meaning" sort to speak)

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I have thought along similar lines. But even if atoms can have observer functions, can they have any notions of truth?

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@Cyracuz,

...only in the sense that at their own level and layer certain "phenomenal behaviours" can "work"...although it is not about will but rather about competence or operativeness, that which they can do as a form of reacting to their environmental context...nevertheless I believe that exactly the same happens to us...(I know believing in free will you disagree of course...)
...in that perspective a "conscious atom" would only mean a reacting atom...

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Like I said, truth is about ideas. If you start talking about "what actually is the case regardless of what we think" you are moving beyond the realm of the knowable, and truth, in this perspective, is as illusive and intangible as "god".

I don't believe that's it's illusive and intangible exactly. We believe it to be since our perceived truths about it change with our ever advancing and changing perceptions. I believe that it is really only ineffable. In order to know an absolute truth, we have to be able to view it without our perceptions and experiences, we have to 'be' that truth so to speak. In a smaller, more easy to grasp situation, it's like trying to accurately express how an emotion makes you feel without using any analogies. How do you explain how you feel when you're sad without trying to compare it to something? You can explain the physiological aspect, but that's it. Joy is so much more than a fast heartbeat and anger is so much more than tense muscles, though.

So basically our own consciousness is battle against our understanding of any absolute truths.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I do not understand your comment about believing in free will.. Are you saying I believe in it? I believe that is a subject with little or no relevance to reality. There are other and better ways to understand things. But that is a digression.

But more to the point, any lifeform can be said to be a cognitive process. It can react to it's environment. I believe consciousness is in everything. But that is not the realm of truth. Truth is something known to self-awareness, and only relevant within relationships of this consciousness that is conscious of being conscious. Outside of it the concept has no bearings.

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@Chights47,

I agree that the only way to experience "absolute truth" is to experience it in a state of meditative awareness where there is no sense of self and environment; where everything is one. But such experiences can never be expressed, and since truth is a matter of expression, there are no absolute truths.
As I see it, "true or not true" are merely categories we can put knowledge into, and such experiences trancend mere knowing.

1 Reply

Truth is a choice

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