@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
If wether or not people chose their beliefs has nothing to do with it, and my reply to you has nothing to do with your point, how is your point relevant to the issue I am trying to discuss in starting this thread? Perhaps you are slighly off topic?
Your objections would be reasonable if it weren't for the fact that we can all, with little or no effort, think of conflicting truths among humans. There are many aspects of existence in which both p and -p is true depending who you ask. So it is clear that truth value in such aspects is assigned and negotiated. And the only thing that validates the truth of what you believe in is your choice to believe in it.
It would help us to establish what is "a truth that isn't a fact". An example of such a truth is "it is wrong to kill".
A truth that is also a fact is "if you do not get nutrition you will die". The latter is not a matter of choice, but if you do not agree that the former is, then what would you say it is a matter of?
But you don't mean "conflicting truths among humans". That makes no sense. What you have to mean is conflicting
beliefs among humans. That is, people sometimes believe different things, and sometimes those beliefs are incompatible with each other. For example some people believed that the Earth was flat, and others that the Earth was round. Both of those beliefs could not have been true (although both could have been false). When two (or more) beliefs cannot both be true, they we call them conflicting (or incompatible) beliefs. And then, of course, the question arises of which of the conflicting beliefs (if any) is true? But a belief does not become true just because it is believed, since (as we all know) some beliefs are true, and some beliefs are false. But there are no "conflicting truths" there are conflicting beliefs.
There are instances when what is
believed true depends on who is asked. But there are no instances when what is true depends on who is asked. The shape of the Earth (whatever it is) is the shape of the Earth, and what that shape is does not depend on who is asked. But, of course, what is
believed is the shape of the Earth
does depend on who is asked.
Now, that said, it is also true that there are some kinds of beliefs where there is no real question of truth or falsity at all. Suppose I believe that vanilla is the best ice-cream flavor, and suppose you believe that chocolate is the best ice-cream flavor. In such a case, it is not (as you said) that what is true depend on who it is you ask (although what you probably mean is what is
believed true depends on who it is you ask) but, rather, there is no truth or falsity at stake here. It is not true (or false) that vanilla is the best ice-cream flavor. There is, in such a case, "no fact of the matter". Such beliefs we call, "
matters of taste", and not "
matters of fact". Or sometimes we call them, "
matters of opinion". Now, it is clear that such questions as what is the best flavor of ice-cream are "matters of taste" or "matters of opinion", and not matters of fact. (Although, note, the question, "what flavor of ice-cream is thought to be the best flavor?" is not a matter of opinion, since we can take a survey and find out the correct answer to that question, do the answer to the question is a matter of fact). But are there other questions that are like the question about the flavor of ice-cream that are questions of opinion and not questions of fact? Well people often differ on that issue. Some will say that all questions of
value are questions of opinion and not questions of fact. Even such questions as, for instance, where abortion is wrong or right. Some people will hold that question is a matter of (ethical) fact. And some, it is a question of opinion.
Now, however you come down on such an issue as to what kinds of questions or issue or beliefs are questions of fact, and what kinds are questions of opinion, you have to allow that there is that difference between the two sorts of questions, and also the two kinds of beliefs. Is the belief, for instance, that Napoleon was the greatest general the world has ever seen a matter of fact, or is it a matter of opinion. And you also have to allow that there are clear cases of beliefs of fact like what the shape of the Earth is, and also clear cases of belief of opinion, like what the best flavor of ice-cream is. And, also, that some beliefs are of one kind, and other beliefs are of the other kind, even if people may disagree about some beliefs, to which kind those beliefs belong.
Finally, when you say that what is true depends on what is believed true, you must be thinking of beliefs of
opinion when there is no real issue of truth or falsity at all. So, you might say that if someone believes that vanilla is the best flavor, then it it is true ("for him") And if someone else believes chocolate is the best flavor, then it is true (for him). And about such beliefs ("opinion-beliefs", we might call them) I suppose you could say that if someone beliefs it, it is true. but what you are really saying is that there is really no question of truth or falsity involved at all, since it is a matter of opinion, and not a matter of fact. But, you can't think that all beliefs are "opinion-beliefs" can you. For instance, that Mars is the fourth planet is not an opinion belief, but it is a factual belief. And about factual beliefs it is not true that if it is believed it is true. Since whether factual beliefs are true does not depend on whether they are believed or not, but depends on the facts, and the facts are independent of our beliefs.
I think you problem is that you think that all beliefs are opinion-beliefs, and have forgotten that there are factual beliefs too. And so, you say that whether a belief is true depend on who it is you ask. But that is not the case for factual beliefs, is it? There is also a linguistic difficulty: I think that many people (you included" sometimes use the term "belief" in such a way as only to mean "opinion", and therefore, you hold that all beliefs are only matters of opinion, and that, therefore, there is no issue of (objective) truth or falsity about them. But you have to remember that many people do not use "belief" only to mean "opinion", but rather to mean something that is true or false independently of what anyone thinks. For instance, when an astronomer asserts that he believes that Mars is the fourth planet, he is certainly not simply asserting his "own" opinion on the matter. The is saying that he not merely believes that Mars is the fourth planet, but that it is true that it is, and that it is true that Mars is the fourth planet whether or not anyone believes it is (including the astronomer himself).