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Truth is a choice

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2011 06:13 pm
@Cyracuz,
No...concious of being conscious is just more complexity of what fundamentally is just relation...and although you are right concerning our experience of truth in its functioning particularity, or the way we can know it in our on layer shelf...nevertheless what it is about its a state of being...as it is and for what it is, in all its dimensions and forms of representation...the problem seems to be not truth in which we rest already, but knowledge of its future direction, or what to make with it...
0 Replies
 
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2011 11:08 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I agree that the only way to experience "absolute truth" is to experience it in a state of meditative awareness where there is no sense of self and environment; where everything is one. But such experiences can never be expressed, and since truth is a matter of expression, there are no absolute truths.
As I see it, "true or not true" are merely categories we can put knowledge into, and such experiences trancend mere knowing.


I believe that we 'can' express our own absolute truth, or at least that we use to possess that ability. At the center of everything is the absolute truth. With all of our "enlightenment" and all of our conscious belief that we do know things blinds us from that. With our attempts to explain this we've only gotten ourselfs further from it. It's as if the absolute truth is actually to simple for us to understand now, rather than too complex. If we continue on this path, then it may be possible to make a full circle and understand that way. I, however, do not think that this will be the case.

The way I see it, the closest answer to the absolute truth that I feel I can convey is "is". The problem with that is that it doesn't seem like an adequate answer. With the advancement of our perceptions and experiences through time, we've tried to take it further by trying to add to it. Such as (this) is (that), an example would be: The sky (this) is blue (that). After that, it's just elaboration on top of elaboration furthering ourselfs from that simple truth. Now as to the true meaning of "is" is truly ineffable in anyway what-so-ever. There are no analogies, perceptions, or experiences that can be shared about it.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 04:56 am
@Chights47,
Chights47 wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

I agree that the only way to experience "absolute truth" is to experience it in a state of meditative awareness where there is no sense of self and environment; where everything is one. But such experiences can never be expressed, and since truth is a matter of expression, there are no absolute truths.
As I see it, "true or not true" are merely categories we can put knowledge into, and such experiences trancend mere knowing.


I believe that we 'can' express our own absolute truth, or at least that we use to possess that ability. At the center of everything is the absolute truth. With all of our "enlightenment" and all of our conscious belief that we do know things blinds us from that. With our attempts to explain this we've only gotten ourselfs further from it. It's as if the absolute truth is actually to simple for us to understand now, rather than too complex. If we continue on this path, then it may be possible to make a full circle and understand that way. I, however, do not think that this will be the case.

The way I see it, the closest answer to the absolute truth that I feel I can convey is "is". The problem with that is that it doesn't seem like an adequate answer. With the advancement of our perceptions and experiences through time, we've tried to take it further by trying to add to it. Such as (this) is (that), an example would be: The sky (this) is blue (that). After that, it's just elaboration on top of elaboration furthering ourselfs from that simple truth. Now as to the true meaning of "is" is truly ineffable in anyway what-so-ever. There are no analogies, perceptions, or experiences that can be shared about it.
Absolute truth is for absolute idiots, and this goes for any absolute of any moral form... All you need is enough, and short of that you get sick and die... Too much is fine, but not enough is a killer...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 06:57 am
@Fido,
I think you have a problem with the term absolute...that is politics not Philosophy, you try to manipulate the outcome in face of your moral fears, I can even sympathise and understand...but bottom line I am not afraid of words for what they are nor can we develop any true knowledge in that way...there´s nothing wrong with the use of absolute concepts as long one really knows what they mean and where they fit...

Absolute is not about the tangible, nor about the phenomenal...
...and such that we should understand that its use should stay out of politics...it is messy when we don´t know the proper place of things.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 07:18 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I think you have a problem with the term absolute...that is politics not Philosophy, you try to manipulate the outcome in face of your moral fears, I can even sympathise and understand...but bottom line I am not afraid of words for what they are nor can we develop any true knowledge in that way...there´s nothing wrong with the use of absolute concepts as long one really knows what they mean and where they fit...

Absolute is not about the tangible, nor about the phenomenal...
...and such that we should understand that its use should stay out of politics...it is messy when we don´t know the proper place of things.
Nonsense... It is a philosophical problem in that it does not reach the level of philosophy, not love nor wisdom... We are talking about moral forms which is the human problem, and moral forms are the foundation of physical forms which are much less of a problem for humanity... In any event, in our limited lifetimes we have no time or point in seeking infinites or absolutes... each and both are total nonsense... If you have no concern for words and what they are then knowledge is lost to you... All words, every word is a concept, and concepts are knowledge, and infinites like moral forms, and moral forms like absolute anything cannot be conceived of, or defined exactly, meaning absolutly... To say your words have no meaning to be concerned of robs you even of the ability to exchange subjective information on any subject... I think it was Voltaire who said: If you would discuss with me, define your terms... I think that you are a lost cause as much as knowledge is a lost cause to you... Define that...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 07:26 am
@Fido,
I thought it could clearly read is not in the realm of the phenomenal, but I guess you missed it...Absolute is an Holistic non linear experience..it cannot be tagged or used to enforce ideas upon others, that´s why it should not be scoped from a political moral perspective...you simple missed my entire point and did get confused on what I as aiming at...
0 Replies
 
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 09:25 am
@Fido,
That would depend on what you mean by idiot? In this sense I think it would be you that is the idiot. In this world in all of our conciousness, at the base of everything is nothing. If you don't believe me, then completely explain the philosophy of language and everything that goes along with it...and that's just a single aspect. The bases of everything was something created out of thin. We use these created tools to try and give form to our thoughts and perceptions and to convey our experiences through them. With that we can only assume that we actually know things. We think that we're going somewhere, while having no idea whether we going anywhere or where we're headed.

Ultimately I believe there are only 2 possible beliefs concerning this, but many branch off from them. Both beliefs amount to either everything exists, or only I (in a general sense) exist. There's no inbetween, something's can't exist while other don't.

I believe that only our concious perceptions of everything doesn't truly exist, but the objects themselves do. I don't believe that only I exist, for it would mean that we don't actually learn anything, but create it. If something new comes into our conciousness I believe that it existed beforehand and that I was just unaware of it. If you don't believe that then you may as well claim to be God. I don't see any other possibilities, but if there are I would love to learn of them. As stated before, anything that exists has it's own absolute truth. It's an absolute truth that you cannot deny your own existence, for if you don't exist, then you cannot make the statement to deny it because there would be nothing to generate the thought in the first place.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 10:32 am
@Chights47,
If you want absolute truth, forget about words. Language cannot express it, and this is due to how language works.

The closest thing I can think of that may fit the idea of absolute truth is the experience of action in which there is no percieved distinction between doer, the task and the environment. So called "perfect action". But this only matters as it happens, and if part of you breaks off from this experience long enough to think the thought that this is absolute oneness in perception, the moment is passed. "Absolute truth" cannot be expressed with words, it cannot be thought about or communicated in any way. It is the experience of oneness, those rare moments when the "apartness" of the self is temporarily forgotten.
But afterwards you can only remember it like a fading dream, and the more you try to describe it, the further away the memory of the experience seems to be.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 10:45 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

If you want absolute truth, forget about words. Language cannot express it, and this is due to how language works.

The closest thing I can think of that may fit the idea of absolute truth is the experience of action in which there is no percieved distinction between doer, the task and the environment. So called "perfect action". But this only matters as it happens, and if part of you breaks off from this experience long enough to think the thought that this is absolute oneness in perception, the moment is passed. "Absolute truth" cannot be expressed with words, it cannot be thought about or communicated in any way. It is the experience of oneness, those rare moments when the "apartness" of the self is temporarily forgotten.
But afterwards you can only remember it like a fading dream, and the more you try to describe it, the further away the memory of the experience seems to be.
Yes to a point... The thing is defined by itself... The application of language or even numbers to it is the abstraction of an abstraction, and that does not add to clarity, but only shines a light on certain aspects of it and leaves the rest in shadows...
Chights47
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 11:55 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

If you want absolute truth, forget about words. Language cannot express it, and this is due to how language works.

The closest thing I can think of that may fit the idea of absolute truth is the experience of action in which there is no percieved distinction between doer, the task and the environment. So called "perfect action". But this only matters as it happens, and if part of you breaks off from this experience long enough to think the thought that this is absolute oneness in perception, the moment is passed. "Absolute truth" cannot be expressed with words, it cannot be thought about or communicated in any way. It is the experience of oneness, those rare moments when the "apartness" of the self is temporarily forgotten.
But afterwards you can only remember it like a fading dream, and the more you try to describe it, the further away the memory of the experience seems to be.
Yes to a point... The thing is defined by itself... The application of language or even numbers to it is the abstraction of an abstraction, and that does not add to clarity, but only shines a light on certain aspects of it and leaves the rest in shadows...


This is exactly what I mean! It seems to me that we're all on the exact same page, yet we can't get our points across because of our perceptions! It seems that we all know what we're talking about and it's the same thing, but our consciousness combined with all of our perceptions and experiences have lead us to explaining the same thing in different ways. In our minds there's no other way to explain it so we just keep going in circles with our same explainations when they're all (in a sense of consciousness) correct!
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:06 pm
@Chights47,
...It very much happens that "words" differ more then what was meant to be conveyed...
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:13 pm
@Chights47,
Yes, your way of communicating it arrives at my way of understanding in such a way that I feel a need to modify or alter the statements, but the essence of what we are saying remains the same.
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:36 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Yes, your way of communicating it arrives at my way of understanding in such a way that I feel a need to modify or alter the statements, but the essence of what we are saying remains the same.


Which is exactly why I come to the conclusion that absolute truth is something that is too simple to understand instead of too complex. You've modified this absolute truth through your conscience, perceptions and experiences just as I have. All of those things differ with every single thing in existence, however, so it's "lost in translation" so to speak. With that said, I believe that this discussion is either dead or must change to something else. If it's to continue, it would be merely to aid in understanding each other by further attempts to convey our perceptions.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:40 pm
@Chights47,
I agree with that. It is a curious thing. Anything that can be said or thought about absolute truth is not true. Which is why I think we are better off saying that there are no absolute truths, since truth without perspective kind of loses it's meaning...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:41 pm
@Cyracuz,
But "absolute truth" aside, perhaps it is easier now to relate to the headline of this thread: Truth is a choice.
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:49 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I agree with that. It is a curious thing. Anything that can be said or thought about absolute truth is not true. Which is why I think we are better off saying that there are no absolute truths, since truth without perspective kind of loses it's meaning...


I agree, we are better off simply claiming that there are no absolute truths. It's as if it's a complete nothingness that is everything...which doesn't really make any sense what-so-ever.
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:51 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

But "absolute truth" aside, perhaps it is easier now to relate to the headline of this thread: Truth is a choice.


I do see the logic in that a whole lot more than I did before and I thank you for that. I still have some small amount of doubt in it, but I cannot give it form so it's moot.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 12:53 pm
@Chights47,
When I use the term Absolute truth I bottom line just mean to emphasize that an "we are here" is better and wiser then an "we are not here"...
"To be" is good enough proof to me...after all what I am defines what I ask and what I can ask... Wink

On choice, I don´t believe in it aside it being a very good special effect that we all experiment very credibly...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 01:00 pm
@Chights47,
It is not an absolute truth, so your reluctance to just agree is perhaps the smart move Wink
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2011 01:03 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

When I use the term Absolute truth I bottom line just mean to emphasize that an "we are here" is better and wiser then an "we are not here"...
To be is good enough proof to me...after all what I am defines what I ask and what I can ask... Wink


"We are here" doesn't work, because it's too much. It's a thought, it's an idea and it's your perception of it. You can't perceive absolute truth, no can you truly have any thoughts about it, it's the like the complete void of everything that is everything. I've tried thinking of analogies to help better represent it and the only idea's I've come up with have so many holes that only my mind would be able to truly grasp...it's difficult. It would be easier to explain in person because you can also use emotions and gestures to help convey the meaning. Basically the less logic and understanding you have, the closer you are to the absolute truth. In that sense, a person that is brain dead realizes this truth more than any brilliant thinker throughout all of time, because he doesn't realize it.
0 Replies
 
 

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