What makes a human being civilized?

Quote:

What kind of processes do you think wealthy countries have a moral obligation to perform to pull other countries out of poverty? My view is that it is a good and even sometimes a wise thing to do, where possible, but that no country has a moral obligation to do it. In fact, I think that to think that countries have moral obligations is a category mistake.

Well, if there's a specific thing that is a good and wise thing to do, and it is easily possible, what kind of obligation does that imply? I guess maybe it isn't a moral obligation.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

What kind of processes do you think wealthy countries have a moral obligation to perform to pull other countries out of poverty? My view is that it is a good and even sometimes a wise thing to do, where possible, but that no country has a moral obligation to do it. In fact, I think that to think that countries have moral obligations is a category mistake.

For over 3 decades we have tryed to pump money into 3rd world countries, yet nothing happens, it's still status quo, too much corruption, too much idiocy, too many interests in keeping the them down and low to screw them over for cheap diamons, oil and other things.

USA did try back in the 80'ies to whipe the warlords, but very unsuccessfully.

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Huck Finn was always on guard against being "civilized." Later on he accepted that he would probably go to hell for it, but he decided, anyway, against turning in the escaped slave Jim. So by rebelling against civilization he became more so.

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@coluber2001,

coluber2001 wrote:

Huck Finn was always on guard against being "civilized." Later on he accepted that he would probably go to hell for it, but he decided, anyway, against turning in the escaped slave Jim. So by rebelling against civilization he became more so.

The term civilized has changed for thousands of years, changed because we understood more and more things about human nature, because of science, with trial and error.

Most people lack evolved rationallity in most of their 12 major intelligences, thus needs a set of rules to guide them.

The story about Huckle Berry Finn showed his deep understanding of compassion and feelings.

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@Jebediah,

It is no secret that the economical imbalances in the world today result from the days of imperialism. And it is also no secret that todays economical system, and how we behave with it, contributes to maintaining the imbalances.
It is in the nature of the capitalistic system itself that we can view the total situation as resulting from many coincidents that are not directly related to the profiteers (us in the rich industrialized countries), and so not their responsibility.
The core of the issue is that we would have to change our own personal worlds drastically to change this. We would have to own up to the fact that global poverty is caused by the conduct of the industrialized countries. Before we do that and seriously start working to change it, I think we will have to say that our civilization is the most barbaric ever to exist on this planet, since we cannot claim ignorance for the harm we cause. Even the human sacrificing tribes of the past acted as dictated by their faith, not their greed. They didn't know better. We do.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

It is no secret that the economical imbalances in the world today result from the days of imperialism. And it is also no secret that todays economical system, and how we behave with it, contributes to maintaining the imbalances.

How did imperialism cause the economic imbalances? Tribal societies were always poor. The industrial revolution and the enlightenment created the imbalance by making the west much richer not by impoverishing the rest of the world. And the ideas about human rights developed have been very beneficial. See gandhi being influenced by the ideas of civil disobedience.

Quote:

It is in the nature of the capitalistic system itself that we can view the total situation as resulting from many coincidents that are not directly related to the profiteers (us in the rich industrialized countries), and so not their responsibility.
The core of the issue is that we would have to change our own personal worlds drastically to change this. We would have to own up to the fact that global poverty is caused by the conduct of the industrialized countries. Before we do that and seriously start working to change it, I think we will have to say that our civilization is the most barbaric ever to exist on this planet, since we cannot claim ignorance for the harm we cause. Even the human sacrificing tribes of the past acted as dictated by their faith, not their greed. They didn't know better. We do.

But our civilization isn't the most barbaric ever to exist, that's not what barbaric means.

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@Jebediah,

barbarian
mid-14c., from M.L. barbarinus (cf. O.Fr. barbarin "Berber, pagan, Saracen, barbarian"), from L. barbaria "foreign country," from Gk. barbaros "foreign, strange, ignorant," from PIE base *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners (cf. Skt. barbara- "stammering," also "non-Aryan"). Greek barbaroi (n.) meant "all that are not Greek," but especially the Medes and Persians. Originally not entirely pejorative, its sense darkened after the Persian wars. The Romans (technically themselves barbaroi) took up the word and applied it to tribes or nations which had no Greek or Roman accomplishments.

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@Jebediah,

The answer to how imperialism caused the economic imbalances is long and big. But it boils down to ruthless exploitation of the stronger position. Disregard for environment, causing natural disasters. Debilitation of soil due to overproduction of raw materials. Help in the form of debt, with terms that obligate the former colonies to prioritize paying it back and to produce the raw materials that the lenders want to buy. Education and welfare also suffer from this. The resources have to go elsewhere; to the former colony masters.

But what do you mean "Tribal societies were always poor"?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Fear and Faith are the 2 big motors of ...the Biological World in general

Oh Lord! And it's 2010...

I can't believe that anyone, could write or even believe such crap...

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@Miller,

I can see you don´t know much on human behaviour and psychology...you seam to be one of those fools that believes the world has progressed much in the last two thousand years...a laugh !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I can see you don´t know much on human behaviour and psychology...you seam to be one of those fools that believes the world has progressed much in the last two thousand years...a laugh !

there is no denying the progress made by ordinary matches.

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@dyslexia,

Don´t take it out of context...you know perfectly well what was meant back there !...

Genetically we are exactly the same Species we were 20, 30 thousand years ago. Its a common objective fact in Science that our impulses urges and emotions haven´t change much since...Culture and Knowledge so far can help you to control it to some extent, mostly to hide it, but hardly have they had any success in changing humankind in a meaningful way. In fact one just have to take a peak in the newspapers everyday to see it quite clearly...nevertheless there is always a "clever" guy who thinks that he has figure it all out...and I don´t find myself the time or patience for this seventy´s idiotic optimism coming out of these infantile naive attacks hoping just to shine a little bit. How should one react to such pretentious approach and nonsense ?

The level of ignorance actually runs so deep in these "childish insights" that we are all to confuse faith with Religion and Fear with physical aggression to get the party going...oh boy !

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

There is the question of wether we can really call the development we have had progress.
Sure, we are providing for around a fifth of the worlds population better than anyone ever has. And that fifth is probably more people than any entire civilization that exixted before ours.

But does the world we have created inspire each individual to better himself? Is it a world in which we can find balance and peace without lying to ourselves? Is it a world truly founded on noble principles, or have they just become a front for the greed of the faceless? Our respective constitutions were written, and from that day it was no longer regarded as the individuals responsibility to live by the moral code the founders of the constitution used as their guide.
The individual is being more and more deprived of responsibility for his own self.

So can we really call our progress progress?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Genetically we are exactly the same Species we were 20, 30 thousand years ago. Its a common objective fact in Science that our impulses urges and emotions haven´t change much since...

You are reducing the human being to animal with this statement. These things are perhaps true, but they account for only a part of the total human phenomenon.
But if you ask me, divorcing divorcing philosophy from religion, and then forming it into science, a discipline in itself totally void of humanity, is the single most degenerating factor in today's world. The hasty people who don't take the time to think it over chose one. Science or religion. Those who have let their mind delve into this conflict have perhaps come to realize that there is no conflict. On the contrary. Science without the moral conduct religion represents spells disaster. So does religion without the clearminded perception science represents.

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this is a great question. should we ever become civilized someone should make note of it.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

It is no secret that the economical imbalances in the world today result from the days of imperialism. And it is also no secret that todays economical system, and how we behave with it, contributes to maintaining the imbalances.
It is in the nature of the capitalistic system itself that we can view the total situation as resulting from many coincidents that are not directly related to the profiteers (us in the rich industrialized countries), and so not their responsibility.
The core of the issue is that we would have to change our own personal worlds drastically to change this. We would have to own up to the fact that global poverty is caused by the conduct of the industrialized countries. Before we do that and seriously start working to change it, I think we will have to say that our civilization is the most barbaric ever to exist on this planet, since we cannot claim ignorance for the harm we cause. Even the human sacrificing tribes of the past acted as dictated by their faith, not their greed. They didn't know better. We do.

Then name me a successful commie regime, I sure don't remember any, even the chineese have changed to capitalism, Russia has also changed to a light capitalism.
It seems the basic beautiful imagination of communism has consumed you.

1 Reply

@Jebediah,

Jebediah wrote:

But our civilization isn't the most barbaric ever to exist, that's not what barbaric means.

There's the ancient preception of the word "barbaric" and the modern. Usually I precive it as "merciless/uncivilized".

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@HexHammer,

No. But just because all attempts have failed doesn't mean it would never work.

What eats at me is this guilty conscience I've had for as long as I can remember. It's not a big thing, hardly noticable. But it is enough to make me miserable sometimes. I know people who feel it worse, and it is the guily conscience of inherently good people forced to contribute to a system that abuses entire nations to support its welfare. That's the bottom line. By not working and paying taxes I am a criminal, but if I do pay my taxes and continue to contribute to this consumption I go against my conscience...

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

No. But just because all attempts have failed doesn't mean it would never work.

What eats at me is this guilty conscience I've had for as long as I can remember. It's not a big thing, hardly noticable. But it is enough to make me miserable sometimes. I know people who feel it worse, and it is the guily conscience of inherently good people forced to contribute to a system that abuses entire nations to support its welfare. That's the bottom line. By not working and paying taxes I am a criminal, but if I do pay my taxes and continue to contribute to this consumption I go against my conscience...

Interesting, so what should suddenly change to make communism successful? ..when it hasn't been slightly successful in almost 100 years.

Do you know why communism has failed abroad?

1 Reply

@HexHammer,

I live in a socialist country. It's so socialist that foreigners tend to call it communist. It's one of the richest nations in the world. Democratic, but more socialist than capitalist because it is what the majority wants.

I am not talking about communism becoming successful. Im talking about capitalism taking responsibility.

1 Reply

What makes a human being civilized?

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