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What can philosophy accomplish?

 
 
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 05:17 am
First of all I will list what I believe philosophy is not capable of. If I want to know about plants I will consult botany, stars-astronomy, animals-zoology and humans-various sciences (biology, anthropology, psychology etc.). If a meaningful question can be phrased that asks about the world around us then it is answered by science. If it deals with the relationships between formal symbols one must consult logic or math. This is in the vein of Hume.

So what are the roles of philosophy?

Is it to form meaningful statements and questions where their is conceptual confussion? If yes can you elaborate. Is the free will and dwterminism problem a prime example, where "free will" is so elusive to the point nobody knows what it even is?

Is it to examine basic assumptions? But what is a good example? Basic assumptions are best asked and answered by scientists. They know what WORKS.

In ethics it seems impossible to come up with the correct system. The best one can do is see which ethical statements are consistent with each other and which are not. Is this maybe the role of philosophy in general? Not to seek answers but to seek internal consistency?

Thanks for your time.
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Type: Question • Score: 6 • Views: 4,513 • Replies: 34
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ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 05:31 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:
If a meaningful question can be phrased that asks about the world around us then it is answered by science.
I reject this contention, can you support it?
markgernot
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 06:22 am
@ughaibu,
Yes, I phrased this badly. Let me rephrase, any meaningful question that can be answered can only be answered by science (or logic,math). Their are some meaningful questions that can't be answred by these, but in this case they can never be answered.
As an example one can ask a meaningful question about god but their is no way to examine gods nature (unless one believes this is an empirical question, like dawkins does).
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 06:36 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:
Let me rephrase, any meaningful question that can be answered can only be answered by science (or logic,math). Their are some meaningful questions that can't be answred by these, but in this case they can never be answered.
I think there are plenty of meaningful questions which can not be answered by science, logic or mathematics, but can still be answered; for example, "do you love me?"
markgernot
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 06:45 am
@ughaibu,
Yes I agree I obviously was not too focused on this statement. Im concerned with what philosophy can accomplish. Your right of course.
There are historical questions as well and questions on how to hit a tennis ball. Im really more interested in what philosophy can accomplish, thats all. Thats what I was focusing on. My point being that philosophers sometimes are trying to accomplish things they cant. So what can they accomplish?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 06:50 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:
My point being that philosophers sometimes are trying to accomplish things they cant.
So are scientists and mathematicians.
markgernot wrote:
So what can they accomplish?
They can explain why scientists and mathematicians continue to attempt to do things that cant be done.
markgernot
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:19 am
@ughaibu,
Science is far more progressive then philosophy. Lets be honest. Scientists and mathematicians are succesful they dont need philosophers today telling them what can be done. ID LIKE TO KNOW WHO CAN TELL PHILOSOPHERS WHAT THEY CAN DO, BECAUSE IM SORRY TO SAY I STUDIED A LOT OF CRAP WHEN I DID MY PHILOSOPHY DEGREE. Witgenstein said "philosophy is what happens when language goes on a holiday". Im not the only person who does not worship philosophy blindly. Im interested in knowing what philosophy can do and what it can't.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:22 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:
Im interested in knowing what philosophy can do and what it can't.
I've told you something that philosophers can do
ughaibu wrote:
markgernot wrote:
So what can they accomplish?
They can explain why scientists and mathematicians continue to attempt to do things that cant be done.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:39 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:

Yes I agree I obviously was not too focused on this statement. Im concerned with what philosophy can accomplish. Your right of course.
There are historical questions as well and questions on how to hit a tennis ball. Im really more interested in what philosophy can accomplish, thats all. Thats what I was focusing on. My point being that philosophers sometimes are trying to accomplish things they cant. So what can they accomplish?


They can try, and sometimes answer, philosophical questions like: is there free will even if determinism is true? How are determinism and fatalism different, and is either true? When I know something, must I also be certain that what I know is true? Can there be morality even without a God? And, so on.

Philosophy is critical thinking applied to very abstract problems we call philosophical questions. So philosophy is an activity called, philosophizing. And, just a critical thinking can often answer non-philosophical problems; what ought to be done about North Korea's hostility (a question for the United States government) so critical thinking can be applied to philosophical problems as well. At any rate, unless critical thinking works it is highly unlikely any other method (like crystal ball gazing) will work.
markgernot
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:41 am
@ughaibu,
I have a science and a philosophy degree. Never have I or any student I worked with require a philosopher for help. You must be joking? And don't give me any stuff about Popper etc. Scientists by doing Science know what can or can't be done. I'm tired of philosophers thinking they deserve any credit for the vastly more accomplished Sciences.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:47 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:
Scientists by doing Science know what can or can't be done.
If you want to persuade me of this, you'll need to demonstrate to me that all scientists know that they are engaged in an achievable endeavour, when doing science. In other words, you will need to do philosophy in order to carry your position. But, as you claim that philosophy doesn't provide a framework to make such a demonstration, you've rather kicked out the stool from under yourself.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 07:49 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:

I have a science and a philosophy degree. Never have I or any student I worked with require a philosopher for help. You must be joking? And don't give me any stuff about Popper etc. Scientists by doing Science know what can or can't be done. I'm tired of philosophers thinking they deserve any credit for the vastly more accomplished Sciences.


Did you ask for help with science, or with philosophy? What would make you think that philosophers claim that they can help scientists do science? (Of course, the philosophy of science isn't science, it is philosophy). But I can help you with one thing in logic. You have just committed the straw-man fallacy.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 08:07 am
@kennethamy,
Another interesting example just appeared on this forum. Someone asked the questions, is there a mind, and where is it located? That is certainly a philosophical question. Can philosophizing answer it? Well it can certainly make a credible attempt, and if it cannot answer it, how else can it be answered? One credible answer is that the mind consists of both actual and potential behavior (analytical behaviorism) and that the mind is located wherever behavior is located. Which makes the philosophical point that it may not always make sense to ask where something is located. And that, in itself, is an answer to a different philosophical question, is what ever exists located somewhere? So, here we have one credible answer to a philosophical question, and one true answer to a philosophical question.
markgernot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 08:37 am
@kennethamy,
thanks for your reply. The freedom and determinism problem is actually my favourite problem. Im trying to come up with basic categories of philosophy. In my OP I suggested one end of philosophy is to phrase meaningful statements and questions. Although we know what we want from free will no one has been able to describe what the world must be like in order to have free will.
I mentioned one other major category and also one that overlaps I think. Any ideas on major philosophical categories regarding ends and methods? And examples for them.
I mentioned ethical systems as a n example of the philosopher trying to find an internally consisteny way of living, for example.
markgernot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 08:43 am
@kennethamy,
I know what philosophy is but if every philosopher on this planet dropped dead it would have no effect on science. Scientists can do their own conceptual analysis. Conceptual analysis within science belongs to the history of science. Numerous scientists with no philosophical training have done this.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 08:58 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:
no one has been able to describe what the world must be like in order to have free will.
Sure they have: http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Future-Agents-Choices-Indeterminist/dp/0195138783/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1
0 Replies
 
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:39 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:

I know what philosophy is but if every philosopher on this planet dropped dead it would have no effect on science. Scientists can do their own conceptual analysis. Conceptual analysis within science belongs to the history of science. Numerous scientists with no philosophical training have done this.


Psychology is a science don't you think? But that's a side track.

You are saying that no scientist needs a philosopher to, for example, measure the distance of the earth from the sun, and the size of the universe as a whole. But I mean, scientists don't just randomly measure things. People can't help but philosophize no matter their profession. I used that example because some scientists have said after measuring the size of various galaxies and such that it "shows how insignificant we are compared to the universe". Which is, I think, a bogus philosophical interpretation of their results.

Science isn't a vault of information that is gathered and stored, never to be talked about. The talking about may not be science per se, but it would be kind of pointless if we didn't don't you think?
0 Replies
 
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 09:45 am
Quote:
"The latter question is absolutely unanswerable, in my opinion. But the former I believe I can answer. The vital clue to keep hold of is that people, and that includes all scientists, are only people after all: poor forked complicated creatures like yourself. Take Professor AB, our distinguished geneticist, member of the such-and-such, winner of the so-and-so: what a very clever man he must be! Well, so he is, in a way, but he is no glassy essence of genetic knowledge; he is lots of other things as well, and one of them is, that he happens to be a Methodist half-wit. Or take CD, a top physicist; but he also happens to take Yuri Geller seriously, or believes that the latest physics vindicates Berkeley's spiritualistic philosophy. Professor EF of pure mathematics, approaching retirement, begins to drive his busy colleagues wild by asking questions like "What the hell are numbers, anyway?" GH finished up as an economist but the mainspring of his life was a vision he picked up from some 19th century philosophers, of a paradise in which "the toiling masses" come into their own. (He hasn't noticed that, where he lives, they knocked off toiling long ago.) The Professor of History, IJ, cannot always silence his own perplexities about historical inevitability, and finds himself asking, as philosophers do, what the truth-conditions are of a statement like "Hitler would have won the war, if he had not attacked Russia". KL, the Professor of Medicine, is drawn by his own new technology, if by nothing else, into agonised deliberations about the duties of a doctor to his patients. And so on. In other words, intelligent people, left to themselves, will philosophise anyway, late or soon, whatever special field of intellectual work they are engaged in, or even if they are engaged in none. The impulse to philosophy is in fact so natural and so strong that nothing is known, short of totalitarian terror, which can absolutely repress it. In a non-totalitarian society, then, philosophy will be done, and the only remaining practical question is how, or by whom, this is likely to be done best. "


http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/whyhave.html
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 11:37 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:

thanks for your reply. The freedom and determinism problem is actually my favourite problem. Im trying to come up with basic categories of philosophy. In my OP I suggested one end of philosophy is to phrase meaningful statements and questions. Although we know what we want from free will no one has been able to describe what the world must be like in order to have free will.
I mentioned one other major category and also one that overlaps I think. Any ideas on major philosophical categories regarding ends and methods? And examples for them.
I mentioned ethical systems as a n example of the philosopher trying to find an internally consisteny way of living, for example.


Since we have free will now, if we describe the world we now have, that would be describing a world in which there is free will. I, for instance, wrote this reply to your post of my own free will, since I was not compelled to write it. A little philosophizing (critical thinking) could help you understand what we mean when we say we do something of our own free will. When we say that, we are denying that we were under compulsion to do what we did. Trying to understand what is meant by the phrase "I did it of my own free will" is an excellent example of using philosophical methods to clarify and get to the solution of philosophical problems. I don't know what you mean by "an internally consistent way of living" (maybe you would like to say what that is). Since we are all able to "phrase meaningful statements and questions" (even children can say "the Sun is shining" or, ask, "what time is it?" why should we need philosophers to help us do what even children can do? Perhaps, though, you have something else in mind.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 11:42 am
@markgernot,
markgernot wrote:

I know what philosophy is but if every philosopher on this planet dropped dead it would have no effect on science. Scientists can do their own conceptual analysis. Conceptual analysis within science belongs to the history of science. Numerous scientists with no philosophical training have done this.


Before you say that kind of thing again and embarrass yourself, you might want to inform yourself a little. A good place to begin would be here:

http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/2683/
 

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