11
   

Morality is not about behavior.

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 07:28 am
@ehBeth,
I dont care if he feels he should or should not. I see you all the time making silly one liners then shuffling away. This is a debate, me asking a reasonable question has nothing to do with you. Make your point or leave me alone.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 07:36 am
@ebrown p,
His religous views do matter, they matter a great deal. Im not demanding, Im enquiring. I assume his religous views oppose his voiced opinions on social concerns. He knows that and understand the problems he will encounter admitting his faith. We all lay ourselves open to scrutiny and often abuse , this is not torture, its essential debate.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 07:39 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Take this statement..he enquires am I religous fanatic..did any one defend me?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 07:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
read this, he knows Im a socialist, I admit it...but he tells me my place is in prison as im a thief..Come on now where were you two then? total bollocks that I can be called a thief but Im not allowed to ask him his faith....go away..
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 07:53 am
It pays not to take things so personally Xris. We are all a little odd, yet we choose to interact with each other in such a forum. '

Carrying things from thread to thread is not useful at all. If David (or anyone else) starts inquiring about how socialistic you are, I will defend you the same way I am defending David now.

Let's just drop it and continue an interesting discussion of people with different perspectives.




OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 07:54 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Ah so you are prepared to make statements but not defend them.
WHICH statements ?



xris wrote:
In the interest of what I would say was your unchristian statements
but sensing your christian beliefs, I find it necessary to understand
your mindset.
1) I 'm not representing Christianity.
2) I am representing libertarianism, Individualism n hedonism.
3) I 'm confident that many Christians have heterogeneous n disparate religious opinions.
I leave them undisturbed to their own beliefs.



xris wrote:
If you dont want to defend your morality with that in mind,
all I can say is..how strange.
Y? What is strange about it ?
I do not hold myself out as an expert on Christianity.
In A2K, I am not carrying the flag for Christianity.

I don 't feel called upon to judge Christians as being good, bad or indifferent.



xris wrote:
To widen the debate how do you think christians can have such views
when they say I dont give a dam about others problems?
I doubt that Christians have a UNIFIED point of vu.
I have never exegesized the merits of different Christian philosophies.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 08:01 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
His religous views do matter, they matter a great deal. Im not demanding, Im enquiring. I assume his religous views oppose his voiced opinions on social concerns. He knows that and understand the problems he will encounter admitting his faith. We all lay ourselves open to scrutiny and often abuse, this is not torture, its essential debate.
I will not censor u; I don 't resent your asking,
tho I choose not to be drawn into a debate of Christianity.





David
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 08:03 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Well as you have just confirmed, your scared of debate..I cant say I blame you with your attitude. Lets say I ignore you, as the only ability you have is abuse and ignorance.
xris
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 08:07 am
@ebrown p,
No friend I wont leave it. He abused me and you did not respond but when I enquired into his faith , you had the audacity to question my motives and tell me I should not.. Take it personally?you made a personal remark not I.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 08:12 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Well as you have just confirmed, your scared of debate.
Emotion is not involved, but I don 't find THAT debate to be of interest to me.


xris wrote:
.I cant say I blame you with your attitude.
Lets say I ignore you, as the only ability you have is abuse and ignorance.
OK, Ignore away !





David
xris
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 08:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Whats the point? you dont want to be questioned. The whole point of debate is to question others their reasoning and moral stand point. If you refuse to be drawn then I have no alternative.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2010 09:44 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Whats the point? you dont want to be questioned.
The whole point of debate is to question others their reasoning
and moral stand point. If you refuse to be drawn then I have no alternative.
If u say so
0 Replies
 
Sentience
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 11:04 pm
I believe in two types of morality:

Subjective Morality: A person is moral if he does what he believes to be moral. Before Godwin's law is raised, yes, if Hitler truly believed that he was doing good deeds, he was a moral person. So yes, I believe in the terms of a person being moral, it is very much about behavior.

Objective morality: The most moral action that could have been performed, that causes the most happiness and the least pain, that evolves around the code of morals all men, or perhaps all things, should have.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:25 am
@Sentience,
I believe your right, so you can only question the reasoning not the outcome. If Hitler refused to argue his reasoning then you might suspect he feels he is not acting within his moral beliefs but beyond them. He has to defend his ethics with debate. If a slave owner claims to be a christian, you have to ask how did he honestly come to that moral understanding considering the christian ideology.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:43 pm
@Sentience,
Quote:
code of morals all men, or perhaps all things


This is mythology... the "code of morals of all men" doesn't exist.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 03:27 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I believe your right, so you can only question the reasoning not the outcome. If Hitler refused to argue his reasoning then you might suspect he feels he is not acting within his moral beliefs but beyond them. He has to defend his ethics with debate. If a slave owner claims to be a christian, you have to ask how did he honestly come to that moral understanding considering the christian ideology.





I wonder what the Christian ideology says about slavery.
I don 't remember seeing anything on that point.


Its probably just a memory lapse on my part.





David
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 07:41 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Slavery is absolutely part of the Christian ideology. From the Bible - 1 Timothy 6.

Quote:


Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved.

Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.


Notice that some of the Masters were themselves Christians. Masters were told to treat their slaves fairly-- they were not told to let their slaves go.

[ There are plenty of similar passages in the New Testament-- see Ephesians 6 Colossians 3, Titus 2, 1 Peter 2 ]

The God of the Bible also clearly tells His people that they can own slaves in Leviticus 25.

Quote:
As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 04:35 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Slavery is absolutely part of the Christian ideology. From the Bible - 1 Timothy 6.

Quote:


Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved.

Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.


Notice that some of the Masters were themselves Christians. Masters were told to treat their slaves fairly-- they were not told to let their slaves go.

[ There are plenty of similar passages in the New Testament-- see Ephesians 6 Colossians 3, Titus 2, 1 Peter 2 ]

The God of the Bible also clearly tells His people that they can own slaves in Leviticus 25.

Quote:
As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.


Well, in fairness, in defense of Christianity,
nothing that u quoted was attributed to Jesus,
nor did it represent that Tim had discussed the issue with Jesus.
I suppose that Tim was entitled to his own opinion.





David
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 05:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Its not the point , you are defending a christian morality on your view of Christianity, someone else can be just as truthful on the moral stand point because of their interpretation and keep slaves. Morality is about your understanding of what it should be and your adherence to it. You can only be truly judged , then only by yourself, if you break your own code of morality. That's why you became an enigma to me when you expressed yourself so callously but gave me the impression you are a christian. No one can judge another's morals, only judge their actions by your morals.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 05:41 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Many of the threads I am in have to do, in some way or another, about morality. It seems to me that in these discussion, a common mistake is made when asking me a question about my sense of morality.

The question is phrased... "Would you sleep with that attractive movie star?"

This question has nothing to do with my sense of morality. I have no question that, as I have made marriage vows, it would be immoral for me to sleep with anyone other then my wife. So the question then has nothing to do with my understanding of morality... many people (if not all) do things that they understand to be immoral.

So there two completely different questions.

1) What is your system of morality (or rules do you use to distinguish between right or wrong)?
2) How do you behave.

Many of the arguments about morality seem to imply that most people act completely in accordance with their own morals. I believe this is completely false... I know that I sometimes do things I know is wrong. And, I know enough people to believe that acting against one's own morals is quite common.

Humans have the ability to justify any behavior by bending, twisting or even changing their own understanding of morality in a way to justify whatever they did. To me this is a bad thing to do. It is self-delusion, and heck; when I do something I know I shouldn't, I figure I should at least own up to it.

When I use the term morality-- I use it to signify what I understand to be right and wrong. For the most part, my behavior matches with this, but it doesn't have to. I can have a strong sense of right and wrong, and still do things I believe are wrong. Or I could do things that you believe are wrong, but in my understanding of morality are "right".



There is no hypothetical morality... People are all moral even when immoral...Our worlds are either physical or moral, and it is the moral world conceived of with moral forms that presents us with the greatest tribulations...That is where the action is... That is why I am a moralist.

Morality is ethics... The words are synonymous... And as you can see by a comparsion of ethics, and ethnic; ethics is about who we are, our character, and how we conceive of self.. And it is self conception that causes people to behave as we would say: Good, or Bad.
0 Replies
 
 

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