8
   

senility, a question.

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 12:41 pm
@ossobuco,
High Seas has been making unsubstantiated claims about inflammation and skin cell testing being able to predict Alzheimer's with 100% accuracy, based on only 20 cases in a 4 year old study. The other study HS posted was from 2005 and was not conclusive. This is disseminating very inaccurate information.

I just posted the correct link to the current, ongoing research on the inflammation/skin cell possible link to Alzeheimer's diagnosis a few posts back. That study is not yet completed.
http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22892/

And I am particularly annoyed that HS has the gall to attack me in another thread with remarks like this

High Seas
Quote:

On some subjects - cancer, dementia, and other life-and-death issues - many readers here are vitally affected by the idiotic disinformation spouted by pretentious fraudsters like Firefly. On a specific issue (dementia) I had to privately communicate with posters genuinely worried by the nonsense she was posting on biochemical tracers as statistical risk predictors - an issue on which Firefly knows exactly nothing.


Meanwhile, the info I have posted in this thread is accurate, and up to date. Which is more than High Seas can claim.

If someone, like High Seas, has to go on a vile personal attack against another poster, like myself, when I am quite obviously well informed and well intentioned, it is a sure sign that HS has no ability to engage in an adult, mature, informed discussion, and is less than well informed herself on this particular topic.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 01:40 pm
@firefly,
No, she was making the claim re CRP test results.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 01:53 pm
@ossobuco,
http://able2know.org/topic/158080-2#post-4274247

http://able2know.org/topic/158080-3#post-4320247

Apparently the results that High Seas knew about have been publically announced in the last few days.

I'm not clear if the results are by the same people as in her link more recently (I am guessing so, re what HS said in another post), or if she was quoting that just for the bit in it about inflammation. CRP is the subtance in the blood that has been found, if only in a small study, to be 100% indicative of Alzheimers.



I have my own questions, in that CRP used to be, or, maybe, still is followed, re flares in some other conditions. In our rheumatology/immunology lab, we used it as, yes, an inflammation indicator; I understand it has implications re thegeneral cardiovascular system. From a quick look at the Wiki link I gave, I can see how it would relate to brain function. What I wonder in my ignorance is if people ever had very high CRPs, say, in flares - are they in future trouble re dementia, or will it be more associated with continuing high CRPs, say, re cardio patients.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 02:09 pm
@ossobuco,
High Seas posted that 2006 Time article about skin cells and Alzheimer's. It wasn't a mistake that HS posted it. HS claimed this "breaking news" (from 2006 Rolling Eyes) justified her earlier post about the predictive value of CRP tests and Alzheimer's.

And, in an earlier post, HS said this
Quote:
There is a simple blood test (CRP, for c-reactive protein) that can be done by any lab. It predicts fairly accurately probability of onset of Alzheimer's, other dementias, and many other diseases, including cancer. It's the best statistical predictor in addition to DNA testing:


That statement is untrue. CRP testing cannot predict accurately the onset of Alzheimer's.

Recent research has found
Quote:

CRP Is Linked to Inflammation and Thinking Problems
Fri, May 28, 2010 10:35:00 AM EST


High levels of CRP, however, were not associated with problems in memory or language skills, which are often a prominent feature of Alzheimer’s disease. CRP did seem to correlate with defects in the brains frontal lobes, which are involved in thinking.

More research is required to determine how inflammation may damage the brain and possibly contribute to Alzheimer’s disease. High levels of inflammation are known to damage blood vessels, including those in the brain. But even when the brain shows signs of damage, it does not mean someone will exhibit memory loss and other thinking problems related to Alzheimer’s.
http://www.alzinfo.org/newsarticle/templates/newstemplate.asp?articleid=406&zoneid=10


When something can "possibly contribute to Alzheimer's" that is a far cry from saying, "It predicts fairly accurately probability of onset of Alzheimer's," as HS claimed.

Someone who engages in such fuzzy thinking, and trys to promote spurious conclusions, as High Seas has been doing, had best think twice before leveling any personal attacks at people, such as me, who do their best to share only the most accurate up to date info with others on this thread. High Seas overly inflated ego just can't take it when anyone points out her errors or catches her on her erroneous conclusions.

I'm interested in having a mature, adult discussion on this very important topic. But I do not have to sit quietly while HS vilely, and unjustifiably, personally attacks me in threads. High Seas seems to be engaging in a rather childish competition with me that is interfering with her ability to objectively look at the research data relating to Alzheimer's .
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 02:37 pm
@firefly,
That link was, I take it, added to show about inflammation and alzheimer's. HS will be back to explain.

I haven't read the recent public CRP announcement myself, and agree with at least some skepticism if only re the small number of patients, who the patients were re their med history, and possibly the repute of the researchers if they indeed were proven wrong on something previously. On the other hand, I don't disbelieve outright that inflammation and its indicator protein has something to do with dementia: it makes sense that it would.

HS sees data the rest of us don't.

I look forward to more news on CRP, especially if the dementia link turns out to be valid, as the test (easy one - it was by far the simplest test in our clin immuno lab - or the laser one) would be easy enough to follow on whether or not the inflammation can be decreased by various means (pharmaceuticals, life style change, and so on).
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 02:39 pm
@High Seas,
Did you read this, Firefly?

High Seas wrote:

Sorry - it was an early backup for more recent results. Inflammation is key predictor was the point - but should have posted different link, if any. Warning though, Rockefeller U researchers are the same ones who discovered the hormone leptin and sold the rights for $20m to drug development to a pharmaceutical company eager to find the cure for obesity; that research didn't pan out. Discovering a causal link doesn't necessarily mean you also found a cure. Will revert later today before 8pm EST. Regret the error.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 02:59 pm
@ossobuco,
osso, High Seas posted that comment only after I pointed out that her previous post, backed up with her posted article about alleged "breaking news" was actually done in 2006. She posted no later research results on this issue, although I did post such a link--twice--as well as a link to a much more recent study on CRP testing and Alzheimer's that disputes High Seas conclusions. And a subsequent post by High Seas, about an NIH scientist convicted for a conflict of interest, was totally unrelated to the topic and made no sense.

Nice of you to try to bail HS out of her error, osso. But she was apparently so anxious to win her argument she posted what she thought was a recent study, when in fact it was done in 2006--and it still didn't support her contention that CRP testing accurately (100%) predicts the later onset of Alzheimer's.

Anyway, I'd rather get back to discussing Alzheimer's. Discussing High Sea's inaccuracies really isn't very interesting.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 04:49 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

No, she was making the claim re CRP test results.

That's correct, and excuse me for not even glancing over hysterical dimwit's psychobabbling posts. In reply to your prior posts, no, it's not the same researcher who discovered the hormone leptin, but yes it's a related group. As to searches on "conflict of interest" "pharmaceutical companies" and "DSMV" any idiot can do it - and if the dimwittie afflicting us with interminable postings right here knew how to check anything, she would have discovered that her source, Ms Gina Kolata (sp?) of the NYT is the bio-equivalent of Ms Miller, girlfriend of a notorious Iraqi "they will welcome us with flower garlands" hustler, who, just like him, got booted out of MIT for cheating on an exam. He moved on to U Chicago, she moved to the NYT.

CRP is a 100%, cheap, accessible marker for Alzheimer's, exactly as I stated earlier. It's also an early marker for ALL dementias, including but not limited to vascular and AIDS-related; but that's precisely the beauty of CRP as an early warning system - previously the markers for LDL, waist-to-hip ratios etc, had been thought decisive, suddenly we see that can only be due to multicollinearity, because AIDS-demented patients are invariably stick-thin, so obesity can't possibly be a contributing factor. As an early warning system CRP test is invaluable, even ahead of genetic DNA (expensive), spinal tap (painful and impractical in most locations), and PET scans (radiation being cumulative). If I haven't yet made clear my utmost contempt for hysterical psychobabblers add that to my prior paragraph. Please also make that BENEATH CONTEMPT. But - and this is a big problem - CRP is a blunt instrument, statistically speaking; in predicting all dementias it's no particular help for Alzheimer's. Have to travel so I wish you all well. Goodbye.


ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:04 pm
@High Seas,
Dare I ask we tone this down?

It was easy enough to take your post on the 2006 article as a poor referent, and people get tired of being dismissed as babblers.

On the public announcement re CRP and the work re 20 patients and 100% association, any link?
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:12 pm
@ossobuco,
Thanks, have no time now, but kept my word as to reverting before 2000 hrs EST. Having already stated no skin test was meant to be linked, and apologized twice regretting the erroneous link, I've no more to say on the skin test subject. Spinal taps are second best, DNA tests are best, CRP are 3rd best (alongside other inflammation markers) but for cost v. efficiency considerations only CRP comes up as a reliable predictor of dementia, though as already noted not specifically Alzheimer's. Btw, those amyloid plaques in the autopsied brains are now known to have been a defensive mechanism of the body against disease, ie a symptom, not a cause of dementia at all. I don't know how much more clear I can get - and am definitely not sure what might be meant by "toning it down", since my tone is, and always has been, impeccably polite.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:16 pm
@ossobuco,
Last I worked with CRPs was 1979; I've no idea about the numbers re high crp with people in colloid disease flare, other immunological situations, and cardio arteries, or with dementias.

Very curious.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:19 pm
@High Seas,
With you until the last sentence.

Snort: calling people names not useful for any of us. I have done that, probably even this week, yes, I'm sure I did - but in my defense, this is a more interesting thread to not let go to hell in a handbasket with name calling dismissiveness.

Have a good flight.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:22 pm
@ossobuco,
Thank you - especially for the novelty of your comment that "impeccably polite" is now calling oneself a name Smile See you, good luck.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:23 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

Btw, those amyloid plaques in the autopsied brains are now known to have been a defensive mechanism of the body against disease, ie a symptom, not a cause of dementia at all.


Yes, I read that.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2010 05:27 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
Quote:
Statistically there is no age-related mental decline - it only seems so because sloppy statisticians add to the sample of healthy older people the unrelated same-age cohort sample of the ill. {/quote}

But that is precisely the way that sample should be drawn.

And to give an opinion regarding sys' original question: there are all kinds of answers to that question and they all are undoubtedly true, in some cases. We know that cognitive impairment, statistically, increases with age. We know that Alzheimer's can begin decade or so before it becomes full blown. We know that personality disorders can become amplified with aging. We know...well, you get the picture.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 02:52 am
@High Seas,
First High Seas says this...
Quote:

Proof of CRP or other (simple and general) inflammation tests as 100% Alzheimer's predictors was finally publicly announced couple of days ago - you know I wasn't allowed to post the research earlier,


But does High Seas post this "proof" which was allegedly publicly announced a couple of days ago?

Of course not. Because there was no such study and there is no such "proof".

Most of what High Seas has posted in this thread on the subject of Alzheimer's has been completely unsupported by any documentation. And a good deal of it has been erroneous.

CRP testing cannot predict Alzheimer's.

Perhaps that is why High Seas then said this...also with no supporting documentation.

Quote:
But - and this is a big problem - CRP is a blunt instrument, statistically speaking; in predicting all dementias it's no particular help for Alzheimer's.


Amazing, High Seas manages to go from saying CRP testing can 100% predict Alzheimer's, to concluding, "it's no particular help for Alzheimer's".

Muddled, confused thinking, no documentation or links to any studies which would back up her conclusions, disregards studies posted by me which contradict her conclusions...I think High Seas has been contemplating her navel too long. She sure hasn't been reading the recent literature on Alzheimer's, or any other dementias for that matter.

What High Seas does, instead of demonstrating any actual knowledge of the topic, is to blow hot air and gratuitously insult other people...

Quote:

excuse me for not even glancing over hysterical dimwit's psychobabbling posts....
If I haven't yet made clear my utmost contempt for hysterical psychobabblers add that to my prior paragraph. Please also make that BENEATH CONTEMPT.


Well, so now I'm "BENEATH CONTEMPT"--in capitals yet. Laughing

Given the source, I think I'll take that as a compliment. At least I know what I'm talking about.



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 03:04 am
I earlier posted the news that Lilly had to halt clinical trials of its new Alzheimer's drug because patients' memory problems were made even worse, among other serious side-effects. This appears to be a real setback in terms of pursuing a treatment for Alzheimer's.

Quote:

The New York Times
August 18, 2010
Doubt on Tactic in Alzheimer’s Battle
By GINA KOLATA

The failure of a promising Alzheimer’s drug in clinical trials highlights the gap between diagnosis — where real progress has recently been made — and treatment of the disease.

It was not just that the drug, made by Eli Lilly, did not work — maybe that could be explained by saying the patients’ illness was too far advanced when they received it. It was that the drug actually made them worse, the company said. And the larger the dose they took, the worse were patients’ symptoms of memory loss and inability to care for themselves. Not only that, the drug also increased the risk of skin cancer.

So when Lilly announced on Tuesday that it was ending its large clinical trials of that drug, semagacestat, researchers were dismayed.

“Obviously, this is disappointing news, to say the least,” said Dr. Steven Paul, an Alzheimer’s researcher and a recently retired executive vice president at Lilly.

Beyond the setback for Lilly, the study raises questions about a leading hypothesis of the cause of Alzheimer’s and how to treat it. The idea, known as the amyloid hypothesis, says the disease occurs when a toxic protein, beta amyloid, accumulates in the brain. The idea is that if beta amyloid levels are reduced, the disease might be slowed, halted or even prevented if treatment starts early enough.

The Lilly drug, like most of the more than 100 Alzheimer’s drugs under development, blocks an enzyme, gamma secretase, needed to make beta amyloid. It was among the first shown to breach the blood-brain barrier and reduce levels of beta amyloid in the brain. And, company studies showed, it did reduce amyloid production.

“We did get enough in the brain to have an effect,” said Dr. Eric Siemers, medical director of Lilly’s Alzheimer’s disease team. “Unfortunately, the effect was not what we wanted.”

Now researchers are focused on what went wrong, and why.

Some, like Dr. Lon Schneider, an Alzheimer’s researcher at the University of Southern California, say the drug’s failure may mean the field is rushing off a cliff in its near single-minded focus on blocking the production of amyloid. Dr. Schneider, like most leading Alzheimer’s researchers, consults for a number of drug companies, including Lilly.

The Lilly study’s failure, he said, “chips away at that approach to testing the amyloid hypothesis.”

“We don’t know what the drug targets for Alzheimer’s disease are,” Dr. Schneider said. “We don’t know because we don’t know the causes of Alzheimer’s.”

At the very least, said Dr. P. Murali Doraiswamy, an Alzheimer’s researcher at Duke University, the Lilly result “clearly tells us that our current views may be too simplistic.”

Dr. Doraiswamy said he was not abandoning the amyloid hypothesis. But, he said, “this is a time of major soul-searching in the field.”

“What worries me is that we don’t know if this was a toxicity unique to Lilly’s drug and this late-stage population or whether it also applies to similar anti-amyloid therapies given at earlier stages of the disease,” Dr. Doraiswamy said.

The bad news came on the heels of what researchers see as a resurgence of hope in this challenging field. With new cooperation in research they have made advances in diagnosing Alzheimer’s, a disease that used to be uncertain until autopsy. And those new diagnostic tests are still exciting, researchers said.

PET scans of amyloid plaques in the brain and tests of cerebrospinal fluid can show amyloid accumulation long before people have symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease and, as recently reported, appear to identify people at high risk of the disease. Researchers believe the best time to try to alter the course of the disease is before memory loss. By then, brain cells are dead or dying and are unlikely to be restored.

At this point, though, when there is no treatment, those tests are primarily a benefit for companies testing new therapies and researchers trying to understand the disease’s progress. .

The long journey of semagacestat began more than a decade ago when Lilly scientists discovered it could block gamma secretase in laboratory experiments. Years of work followed, showing it appeared safe, that it got into the brains of people, that it reduced the production of amyloid in the brain.

Finally, in 2008, Lilly began two large studies of semagacestat, enrolling more than 2,600 people with Alzheimer’s disease. The company did not expect its drug to reverse the disease — patients’ brains were too ravaged for that, said Richard Mohs, Lilly’s team leader in Alzheimer’s research. But it did hope to slow the disease’s progression.

Now, with the abrupt end of the studies, patients will continue to be followed but no one will be taking any more of the drug.

“The fact that people got worse means there is biology we don’t understand,” Dr. Mohs said.

There are several possible explanations.

One is that the drug altered the functioning of other proteins in the brain and body — it now appears that gamma secretase is involved in the production of about 20 proteins in addition to beta amyloid. Companies, including Lilly, are developing drugs that block gamma secretase from making amyloid but have little effect on other proteins.

One company, Bristol-Myers Squibb, says that is what its drug does. Its drug is now being tested in two clinical trials. In one, the participants have Alzheimer’s. In the other, they have lesser memory impairment and have brain amyloid PET scans and tests of cerebrospinal fluid showing amyloid is accumulating in their brains, indicating that they are likely to develop Alzheimer’s.

“We still like the amyloid hypothesis,” said Charlie Albright, a Bristol-Myers group director in neuroscience biology. The Lilly drug failure “doesn’t affect our enthusiasm about going forward.”

Another possibility is that the enzyme is decreasing production not just of a dangerous form of amyloid, known as a beta 42, but also of another form, a beta 40, that may protect the brain. Companies are developing so-called selective gamma secretase inhibitors, Dr. Paul said, which only block the production of a beta 42.

Lilly and other companies are also testing monoclonal antibodies to reduce amyloid levels.

And companies are pursuing a more difficult target — blocking a protein, tau, that accumulates in dead and dying nerve cells after the disease is under way.

But Alzheimer’s experts worry about the future. The research is extremely expensive — Lilly spent hundreds of millions of dollars on its failed drug — and it can take a decade or more to know if a drug works. It can take even longer if drugs are tested in people with mild symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease or in people who are at high risk but have no symptoms yet — a direction many think is necessary to really make a difference.

“Failures certainly don’t build energy and enthusiasm,” said Dr. Samuel Gandy, an Alzheimer’s researcher at Mount Sinai Medical Center. “The market is still there, but failures do take their toll.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/health/19alzheimers.html
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 03:08 am
@firefly,
I am guessing that in a small survey, all the dementia patients had way high CRP.
That still interests me. I share doubt re the process, but remain interested.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, ff - there was probably such a study.

FF, really, the woman is often on planes, with little sleep.. You seem to have no empathy to her, nor she to you - but, give her a break re some kind of instant response.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 03:28 am
An interesting editorial I came across...

Quote:

Alzheimer's testing: Be careful what you ask for
Published: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 10:53 PM
The Oregonian Editorial Board

The great conundrum delivered by the latest new medical test is whether to take it at all. Do you really want to know that you'll suffer Alzheimer's Disease when there is yet no cure?

Even if the test were 100-percent certain in its predictive value, which in the case of Alzheimer's it may not be, the question gets complicated very fast.

Yes, a person has a right to know about any truth lurking about in his or her body – not unlike genetic counseling during pregnancy. But no, a person for whom there is no proven treatment may find it a gruesome life sentence to live under for years: waiting for the train to arrive and demolish sanity.

And no, again, for the person who may have other symptoms, such as depression or disability, that need ruling out before Alzheimer's becomes the clinical conversation.

Happily, there's a wide gray zone to be considered on the heels of promising findings published last week in the Archives of Neurology. Researchers found that spinal fluid reliably contains markers of the disease years before its arrival.

The value of the findings is immediate. Despite increasingly useful PET scans, the most declarative diagnosis so far has been by autopsy. In that horribly late procedure, amyloid plaques that Alzheimer's concentrates in brain tissue are revealed.

In simple spinal tap tests, however, researchers found that the spinal fluid of most patients with mild memory problems but not yet diagnosed with Alzheimer's carried proteins linked to Alzheimer's plaques – and every one of them carrying the proteins developed Alzheimer's within five years. In a smaller cohort of symptom-free subjects, about a third were found to carry the proteins; their destinies are not yet known, and they were never told of the discoveries.

Without question the findings are a hugely promising development in helping to devise treatments –mainly, new drug regimens – for a ravaging disease on the rise. With more and more symptomatic folks being tested for the presence of spinal fluid markers known to signal Alzheimer's, more and more trials can be done to see what slows the disease's progression and perhaps even shoot it dead.

We are not so cynical as to believe this creates an unbridled race among drug companies to claim a jackpot over ruined brains. Instead, with predictive detection among the right candidates, research into the mechanics of the disease expands manyfold. And we can't learn enough about this beast soonest.

But the spinal tap findings do not create the immediate promise of inexpensive, widely available, prophylactic testing for anyone worried about this morning's "senior moment" of forgetting the car keys.

Dr. Joseph Quinn, a neurologist at Oregon Heatlh & Science University, recently reported success in slowing the brain atrophy and mental decline of Alzheimer's patients receiving the experimental drug Bapineuzumab. While Quinn is among those trying to find the best weapon to take Alzheimer's down, he is cautious about the newest findings of spinal fluid markers.

"We do spinal taps routinely now, in research studies," he says, adding, "but not in clinical circumstances."

And yet the clinical cirmstance is the gray zone where most of us live – in the visit to the doctor to report memory or comprehension challenges. It's where many health factors are taken into account and best judgments are made about whether to take a test whose results might help – or hurt.

For some folks the spinal fluid test will be right: a guide to more focussed treatment, perhaps involvement in the quest to beat Alzheimer's.

For many, however, the spinal tap could mislead or, if it were to offer a perfect prediction, torment. Neither is a particularly healthy outcome.

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/08/testing_for_alzheimers_be_care.html


I can see some value in knowing if one is on the way to developing Alzheimer's. You could decide how to spend the meaningful time you have left, and you might make some major changes, like retiring much sooner, traveling more, etc.

But I'm not sure I really would want to know.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2010 03:53 am
I would want to know - for those very reasons, and more.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Neo: Apodictical existential pantheist - Question by dalehileman
Lots of new members - Question by dalehileman
BBB's questions - Discussion by BumbleBeeBoogie
how do you know? - Discussion by dyslexia
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/28/2024 at 05:03:55