Why do men dress up as women?

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Interesting, dag.

I certainly wouldn't waste my time pondering, or questioning (heaven forbid!) anyone's "real" sexuality, either. That would be the height of arrogance. They just are what they are ...
I guess, as a woman, it interests me that so many men enjoy presenting themselves as women with such enthusiasm. I would love to understand this. But there seems there's nothing to understand? I had a hunch that, with gay parades like the mardi gras, that it was some sort of political statement? But maybe not.

it often fuses with gay rights, etc. mind you, i was around a particular group of men, certainly only a slice of the whole spectrum out there, but for them it was a part of their identity, sexuality, self-expression. none of them were terribly involved in anything political, though to parades they would go.
thinking about it, these guys grew up as misfits, most had to battle their way out of the closet, i presume it's a celebration of sorts, power in hannah arendt sense - power of collective action, being and acting together....not over someone else. that might certainly be an important aspect of the public cross dressing.

but i believe mardi gras and carnivals and such have older roots, though those can be certainly explored too - but it's a separate bag, i believe.

1 Reply

@dagmaraka,

Quote:

it often fuses with gay rights

Yes, indeed.

I guess I've sometimes had this small niggling worry that political gay men, by adopting such extravagant & overt female identity as their own , were making a statement about oppression. Like seeing women as the oppressed half of the human race. Someone set me straight on this, please, & tell me there's no need for further concern. Wink

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@msolga,

Well, with the gay parades I think there is something generally political about it -- refusing to hide and trying to pass. Doing the OPPOSITE of hiding and trying to pass. That includes both drag stuff and more gay-masculine stuff.

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@dyslexia,

dyslexia wrote:

well, first of all lots of women dress like men, (perhaps not dramatically but they do) ...

I'll have to agree with Bob on this one. I think it's just not quite so obvious as men wearing "women's clothes".

Women wearing slacks and suit tops look a lot more masculine, but I think it's much more excepted due to the times we're in and the changing of fashion styles.

Exceptions to men wearing women style apparel would be where it is tradition in their own country. For example, in Scotland and the wearing of kilts.

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Quote:
it often fuses with gay rights

Yes, indeed.

I guess I've sometimes had this small niggling worry that political gay men, by adopting such extravagant & overt female identity as their own , were making a statement about oppression. Like seeing women as the oppressed half of the human race. Someone set me straight on this, please, & tell me there's no need for further concern.

they don't give a crap about women, no need for further concern :-)

actually, i am majorly kidding. i know my gay friends (men and women) are closely allied with feminists... but THAT has little to do with cross dressing. it seems that my activist gay friends (ngos) do not cross dress, and my cross-dressing gay friends are just not that into politics. could be coincidence, but that is my experience.

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Pardon my indulgence, This was too good an opportunity to miss! Smile

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@dagmaraka,

Quote:

they don't give a crap about women, no need for further concern :-)

Well if they really don't, & they're the folk dressing up as women, my concerns remain kinda intact, dag. Wink

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Perhaps it has something to do with their occupation. Wink

http://www.holycrossseminary.com/images/priests-retreat.jpg

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/priests-2008-all.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/1more/CRimage/BlackWatchFlowerofScot.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BfflSH3V_ck/TA7NmMdAwyI/AAAAAAAADak/q07YwesuydE/s640/46240104_f70ededa7a.jpg

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@Butrflynet,

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@ehBeth,

Right, when I took trig at Santa Monica City College one summer, I couldn't wear pants. That would have been '60.

I only have impressions. I think I observe - via reading - that plenty of men who are heterosexual get a kick out of some elements of crossdressing. No one is talking here yet about transgender, which I understand less than I do cross dressing by whomever.

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There are probably as many reasons for doing this as there are people doing it. I wouldn't try to fit such a vast number of participants into one motivational wagon.

On a gut level, I'm guessing its not very intellectualized by the doer; that it just "feels good" to do it - like all "bodily accessorizing"; many people for many different reasons. That its end-appearance is cross-gender means nothing except that they're not "hung up" on that being an issue.

... or so I think

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@Khethil,

Quote:

On a gut level, I'm guessing its not very intellectualized by the doer; that it just "feels good" to do it - like all "bodily accessorizing"; many people for many different reasons. That its end-appearance is cross-gender means nothing except that they're not "hung up" on that being an issue.

Yes, you're probably right about that, Khethil. It feels good to do it.

But as a woman (& a feminist) you might understand I have some interest in why it feels good? I've often wondered about women as "drag". What that means for those doing it & for women. I don't know that there's any clear answer to that, really ...

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@msolga,

start wondering why women dress as they do

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@oolongteasup,

I have actually.
About some items of women's "fashion apparel", for example.
Those super duper teetering high heels can seem somewhat masochistic. Wink

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Quote:
On a gut level, I'm guessing its not very intellectualized by the doer; that it just "feels good" to do it - like all "bodily accessorizing"; many people for many different reasons. That its end-appearance is cross-gender means nothing except that they're not "hung up" on that being an issue.

But as a woman (& a feminist) you might understand I have some interest in why it feels good? I've often wondered about women as "drag". What that means for those doing it & for women. I don't know that there's any clear answer to that, really ...

Yea, that's what I'm guessing. There are likely transvestites who like feeling the graceful "prettiness" that their gender is socially denied, there maybe some who wanna try to feel 'like a woman', I'm sure there are some for whom its an exciting/tittilating practice. Who knows.. not me - for sure. My only point is that, as you suggested, there may not be any clear [single] answer.

Thanks

1 Reply

@Khethil,

My daughter and I were talking about this last night because we were watching the recording of Glastonbury Festival (Stevie Wonder was AWESOME!) and there was a new band that I'd never heard of but that I liked and they were all rather normal looking young men and the guy on the drums was wearing a navy blue dress with white polka dots - with a belt. It looked like a vintage dress - I'd have loved to wear it, but this guy looked like a rugby player - big, rugged, full beard - just drumming away in a dress.

I said, 'Is he wearing a dress?' My daughter said 'Yeah, you know a lot of guys wear dresses now.'

Then I said, 'Do you know why?' (thinking of this thread).

She said 'I guess they just feel free to do what they want to do- like with the whole kissing thing.'
She and I have had this discussion before about the trend of young men kissing other young men - she says this has become quite common too.

I told her, being a woman who is attracted to masculine men, that I was glad I grew up when I did. She asked why. I said because that I grew up in a time when people were very free - probably even more free than now - right before AIDS, etc... but that guys still acted like guys - and I personally, being a woman who is attracted to masculine guys- liked that, as opposed to having to wonder what message might be being sent by my boyfriend wanting to wear my dress.

I asked her if she would feel comfortable if her boyfriend wanted to wear her dress. She admitted that she's glad he's never asked her.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Thanks Aidan,

Interesting - yes it seems I'm out of the loop nowadays, I had no idea males kissing males (except where culture has allowed - almost required - for eons just such a social practice) had become so popular.

As far as just feeling free enough to slap on a dress: Yep, that's freedom from the social taboos I was raised with. I don't have any urge to wear women's clothing; its hard for me to imagine that I'm missing something - my socialization is locked pretty firmly into place.

aidan wrote:

I asked her if she would feel comfortable if her boyfriend wanted to wear her dress. She admitted that she's glad he's never asked her.

Now that's quite telling

Thanks

Edit: Maybe I'm not that far off, as soon as I retired from the Military I grew my hair very long - haven't regretted it for an instant.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

I think it is much harder for women to dress as men than vice versa.

A woman with no make-up, pants, button-down shirt, even a tie: perfectly normal and not head-turning.

A man with make-up and a dress: WHOA! Cross-dresser!

I do feel badly for men about this, that their fashion choices are so constricted. We have a much broader range of what we could wear, if we so choose, without being socially awkward.

I was thinking about this the other day when looking at photos of my good friend's absolutely adorable 4-year-old son. He loves princesses and pink and purple and purses and sparkles. She is game and went ahead and gave him a princess party -- there were tutus and pony rides and in the pictures he is beaming.

My thought process was approximately "good for her" then "people do know they're gay as early as four, don't they" and then "maybe he just likes purple et al" and then "god I'm glad I didn't have to deal with such questions" (sozlet has had major tomboy tendencies throughout, though she also liked pink and purple and sparkle et al) and then "hey that's not fair... how come sozlet can like sneakers and shorts and t-shirts and being tough and sporty and that's just cute, but this kid likes 'girly' stuff and that's seen as weird/ alarming?"

Persistent cross-dressing in boys, and development of female personae, (I've seen five year olds with a named female self)....can often be indicative of homosexuality and occasionally gender dysmorphia....but it's also a common thing for them to want to do and means nothing.

Gay men often report knowing they were gay from toddlerdom up, and I cannot dispute that...but a hell of a lot of gender curiosity goes on for little boys. The TEARS I have had to mop up when the munchkin cross-dressers who seem really convinced they want to be a girl get told they won't be able to have babies from their tummies (at least yet)!!!! Sometimes that shifts them right back into wanting to be a boy after all.

I think the disapproval of men dressing as women beyond the odd joke (you just CAN'T keep Aussie men out of frocks if there is a chance to put one on is my experience) is simple....women are lower status still, and men who do it are seen as lowering themselves. Seems to make lots of men, especially, INFURIATED, just like homosexuality does. I don't get it at all, but there it is.

For most guys who do it for fun at parties and such I think it's fun and kind of a bit thrilling.

For the mainly hetero guys who do it persistently, I think it's just a bit of a fetish.

I guess for a bunch of gay men who do it all the time, it's part of their sexual expression...and for trans-sexuals, it feels like who they are.

Hell, I adore playing with being a bit of a queen sometimes, it's fun!!! Humans seem to like bright, glittery things.

And...er...really high heels and leathery stuff and glittery stuff is a bit of a turn-on.....

Embarrassed

occasionally......

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Quote:
There definitely is female drag, too, though I see it less.

That's partly why I asked the question. Because I've rarely seen female drag. I've had close lesbian friends (gay men friends as well) , worked very closely with women who are lesbians & gotten to know them well. It hasn't been a feature of their "culture".

It has been at earlier times....I suppose when women didn't get to dress in pants and such without almost the same disapproval men dressed as women can get now (though that is fading)

Look at Collette's time...George Sand....there WAS a whole culture. Marlene Dietrich in a tux was a lingering remnant of that.

I guess it has lost the frisson of the forbidden?

George Sand with male companion:

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@dlowan,

Very, very interesting, Deb.
Thank you.

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Why do men dress up as women?

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