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Baptism: What's your take on it

 
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 06:42 pm
@Brian764,
Brian@764;48060 wrote:
There is example in the Bible where some had received the Holy Spirit, without getting baptized. But after they received the Holy Spirit, they were baptized. A person that has truly repented will not refuse to be baptized. Baptism is on outward sign of what has taken place inside the person. Jesus never sinned, yet He was baptized; if Jesus got baptized, yet never sinned, why would we who have been born in sin, and has repent refuse to get baptized?


You didn't answer his question about people physically unable to get baptised, i'm interested in your answer.
Brian764
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 07:54 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;48135 wrote:
You didn't answer his question about people physically unable to get baptised, i'm interested in your answer.


What would prevent someone from physically unable to get baptized?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 07:58 pm
@Brian764,
Brian@764;48155 wrote:
What would prevent someone from physically unable to get baptized?


any number of physical impairments.

now will you please answer the question?
Brian764
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 08:28 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;48158 wrote:
any number of physical impairments.

now will you please answer the question?
0 Replies
 
RED DEVIL cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 09:30 pm
@Brian764,
Brian@764;48122 wrote:


And the rest of the Bible, as I pointed out, shows in clear and plain language that there will be no "literal" 1000 year reign. The only place that it is mentioned is in "symbolic" text and that is only found in the book of Revelation, if you can show where there will be more than "one" judgment, one second appearance, or a literal reign of 1000 years mentioned in the scriptures please present such text, as I am unfamiliar with them. The text that you quoted to present your doctrine in the book of Matt. is taken out of context and incorrectly applied, as Jesus was clearly speaking of the tribulation that would befall the city of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel in or around 70AD, as was prophesied in the book of Daniel, "When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:" (Matt. 24:15).
One can simply go to wikipedia for a detailed description of the siege of Jerusalem AD, where the temple was completely destroyed.

To understand Matthew 24 one must first understand Matthew 23, in which Jesus is speaking only to the Jewish nation and explaining to them that their nation would be left desolate by Gods judgment, Jesus was not speaking of the end of the world, only the fall and destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation as is clear by the text, " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killed the prophets, and strongest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered they children together, even as hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and would not! Behold, your house is left desolate, For I say unto, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He That Cometh in the Name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:37-39). Where as just previous while speaking to the same people (only the Jewish nation) he warned them as such, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION (Matthew 23:36).

Then He continues in Matthew 24 with the "exception" that He was speaking only in private to His disciples. As Jesus went out of the temple and His disciples came to Him, He pointed to the Temple and said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down" (Matt.24:2). Next, we see Him offering council and answering "private" questions from His disciples, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?(The destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem as that is still the context presented), and what what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world? (A totally different subject as presented by a different question). Jesus then goes into a detailed prophecy addressed toward the "first" question, WHEN WILL JERUSALEM FALL?(Matthew 24:4-35). Ending with verses 34-35 saying again as He did in Matt. 23:36, while speaking to the Jews, " Verily I say, unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away." (Clearly meaning there was nothing, nor no one that could stop His prophecy from being fulfilled in that generation).

Now Jesus concerns Himself with the next two private questions asked by His
disciples, concerning the end times as is made clear with His first statement, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angles of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matthew 24:36-37).

Many today try to take Old Testament prophecy that has already been fulfilled and try to inject it into some future event, when it was made clear by the Christ that only the Father knows when that time will be. Some say that the Last Days did not start until the new Jewish nation of Israel came into existence in 1947, while the scriptures make it clear that even Peter was living in the Last Days, or the last dispensation of Man. Acts 2:14-17, as Peter explains that the prophecy of Joel was in fact being fulfilled on that day of Pentecost about 2000 years ago, but still some are waiting for that prophecy to come about today.

There is some "symbolic" text used in Matthew 24 as well concerning such things that would happen after the fall of Jerusalem. There are two distinct and separate judgments from God, the first on the nation of Israel for rejecting the Son of God, as determined by his rebuking them in Matt. 23, and Jesus describes how that judgment will come about upon them(the nation of Israel at that time).

Jesus gave specific signs to watch for so no "Christian" would get caught when the judgment came upon the Jewish nation. 1) When they would see the Abomination of desolation as spoken by Daniel (Matt.24:15). 2) A great tribulation would befall the Jewish nation like the world had never seen before would follow the destruction. 3) The eagles would gather around the carcasses (Matt. 24:28). Eagles were the symbol of the Roman legions, so he was prophesying of the Roman army laying Siege to the dying nation of Israel.

Jesus also stated that the signs of the coming Judgment on Jerusalem would be easily seen. They did not have to worry about missing them. (Matt. 24:27) This is speaking in a symbolic nature concerning the judgment to befall Israel as Jesus is the body of the Church and by 70AD the Christian church had been well established.....The lighting cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; So shall the coming of the Son of Man be. By that time the word had spread all across the nation.

Right after the fall of Jerusalem there would be a great shake up in the government of the land. The sun, moon, and stars representing government powers, common symbols in the Old Testament prophesies (Isaiah 13:10, Ezekiel 32:7, Joel 2: 10, 3:15).

(Zephanish 1:15-18) describes such as the judgment that would befall the nation of Israel.....Like a storm cloud gathering above, people tremble at the potential destructive forces. "That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of devastation and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of trumpet and alarm aganist the fortified cities and against the high towers, ' I will bring distress upon men, and they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD; their blood shall be poured out like dust, and thier flesh like refuse.' Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORDs wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy, for He will make speedy riddance of all those who dwell in the land.

This imagery is often confused with the end of the world, which is often expressed in similar terms. But where this speaks of Israel mourning over their pending judgment at the prophecy of Christ, in the end times the judgment will be against all the nations of the earth (Matt. 25:32)
RED DEVIL cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:15 pm
@Silverchild79,
One more post concerning this subject of Jesus coming to earth to "physically" reign for a period of a thousand years. It can best be addressed by asking a very simple question.

WHY BRING JESUS BACK TO EARTH? What would Jesus do that He has not done, if He should return to dwell on the earth again?

First we read from these passages of scriptures in 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:23-28, "But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; after-ward they that are Christs at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom(church) to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy is death. For HE HATH PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET. But when he saith all things are put under him; it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all and all."

HIS MISSION OF REDEMPTION IS COMPLETE - Eph. 1:7-10
A. Forgivness/redemption now available in Christ - Col. 1:13-14
B. All things pertaining to our salvation have been "summed up" in Christ - verse 10

HIS REVELATION IS COMPLETE - Jude 3
A. God's scheme of redemption reached its completion in Christ - Eph. 1:9, 2 Tim. 3:16-17

HIS AUTHORITY IS COMPLETE - Matt. 28:18-20
A. All authority implies completeness - Col. 1:13
B. Christ has preeminence now - Col. 1:16-18, 1 Tim. 6:15

HIS GLORY IS COMPLETE - John 17:5, 10
A. His glory is received in his Kingdom - Matt. 20:20-21, Mk. 10:37.
B. Jesus entered his glory when he was raised & ascended to heaven - Lk. 24:25-26, 1 Peter. 1:21.

HIS CHURCH IS COMPLETE - Eph. 1:22-23
A. The church is the fullness of Christ -v. 23.
B. The manifold wisdom of God is seen in the church - Eph. 3:10.

CHRIST CONQUEST OVER SATAN & SIN IS COMPLETE - Heb. 2:14-15
A. Jesus entered the strong man's house & bound him Matt. 12:29.
B. To teach that Jesus failed his "first" mission is to say that Jesus did not conquer sin and death.

AS TAKEN FROM A CHRISTIAN STUDY GUIDE
Brian764
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:16 pm
@RED DEVIL cv,
RED DEVIL;48165 wrote:
And the rest of the Bible, as I pointed out, shows in clear and plain language that there will be no "literal" 1000 year reign. The only place that it is mentioned is in "symbolic" QUOTE]

That is you saying it not a literal 1000 years, the scriptures do not say or imply that it not.

I could say that the fire that the wicked will be cast into is not a literal fire, but just symbolic. I could say that when it says the saints and Jesus will rule forever and ever it does not mean endless, but just a very long time. I could put whatever interpretation I want in the Bible.
0 Replies
 
Brian764
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:21 pm
@RED DEVIL cv,
RED DEVIL;48167 wrote:
One more post concerning this subject of Jesus coming to earth to "physically" reign for a period of a thousand years. It can best be addressed by asking a very simple question.

WHY BRING JESUS BACK TO EARTH? What would Jesus do that He has not done, if He should return to dwell on the earth again?

First we read from these passages of scriptures in 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:23-28, "But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; after-ward they that are Christs at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom(church) to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy is death. For HE HATH PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET. But when he saith all things are put under him; it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all and all."

HIS MISSION OF REDEMPTION IS COMPLETE - Eph. 1:7-10
A. Forgivness/redemption now available in Christ - Col. 1:13-14
B. All things pertaining to our salvation have been "summed up" in Christ - verse 10

HIS REVELATION IS COMPLETE - Jude 3
A. God's scheme of redemption reached its completion in Christ - Eph. 1:9, 2 Tim. 3:16-17

HIS AUTHORITY IS COMPLETE - Matt. 28:18-20
A. All authority implies completeness - Col. 1:13
B. Christ has preeminence now - Col. 1:16-18, 1 Tim. 6:15

HIS GLORY IS COMPLETE - John 17:5, 10
A. His glory is received in his Kingdom - Matt. 20:20-21, Mk. 10:37.
B. Jesus entered his glory when he was raised & ascended to heaven - Lk. 24:25-26, 1 Peter. 1:21.

HIS CHURCH IS COMPLETE - Eph. 1:22-23
A. The church is the fullness of Christ -v. 23.
B. The manifold wisdom of God is seen in the church - Eph. 3:10.

CHRIST CONQUEST OVER SATAN & SIN IS COMPLETE - Heb. 2:14-15
A. Jesus entered the strong man's house & bound him Matt. 12:29.
B. To teach that Jesus failed his "first" mission is to say that Jesus did not conquer sin and death.

AS TAKEN FROM A CHRISTIAN STUDY GUIDE


I think you need to put that study guide away and study the Bible with out it....it's misleading you.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 01:01 pm
@Brian764,
Hey this thread is way too old, it's been going since before i joined this site, it should be locked...

maybe you guys should continue this argument on another thread!
0 Replies
 
RED DEVIL cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 01:03 pm
@Brian764,
Brian@764;48169 wrote:
I think you need to put that study guide away and study the Bible with out it....it's misleading you.


Present the book, chapter, and verse where it has made a misquote of Biblical scripture, in either words or comprehension. I shall be waiting for your help in leading me in the right direction. The one's being mislead are the ones that are taking doctrine that comes from the imagination of man instead of the inspired writings of the Holy Bible. As I said, point out in the scriptures where there is more than "ONE" judgment of mankind, more than "ONE" coming of the Christ, more than "ONE" baptism, more than "ONE" faith. As shown for anyone to "expect" a literal physical reign of Christ here on earth they are drawing this information from the imagination of man and not from the scriptures.

The purpose of Jesus' return is clearly stated in "non-symbolic" text. Jesus shall at his second coming raise "ALL" the dead (same day), both those who have "done good" and those "that have done evil" (Jn.5:28-29). Jesus shall judge all men at his return (Matt.25:31-46). Men shall be judged based on their deeds and God's word shall be the standard (Roman 2:6, 2Cor.5:10, Jn.12:48). The wicked shall be assigned to everlasting punishment and the righteous to life everlasting (Matt.25:46). The righteous living "shall be caught up together with the dead in Christ, (vs. 16) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Thes.4:13-18).

Jesus is not coming to establish a governmental kingdom on earth (its simply not taught). In fact, at his coming the kingdom (spiritual kingdom, Jn.18:36) will be "delivered up" to the Father (1Cor.15:24). Jesus will not be coming to offer man a second chance, it will be too late when Jesus returns. As we should already be living inside the protection of that spiritual Kingdom/church that Jesus laid the first corner stone of the foundation in when He uttered these words, "IT IS FINISHED" (John 19:30)

The duty of all man, instead of attempting to speculate and bind where the scriptures have not spoken, is to accept what is taught relative to Jesus' return and prepare himself for that great, august event (Matt.24:42, 1Thes. 5:6-9). RD
0 Replies
 
 

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