I must say, Red Devil, you have made a good case for baptism being the path to salvation. Here's a few questions I have:
1. If someone believes whole-heartedly and accepts Jesus' gift of salvation by word and even makes public testimony, yet is not baptized, do they suffer eternal damnation when they die?
2. The bible also says many times that good works, actions, etc. are worthless to God. Baptism falls into that category, so isn't that a biblical contradiction?
3. Do you think that it is logical for God to place such a strict criteria and a confusing religious obstacle course in front of us to achieve salvation? I mean, if immersive baptism is absolutely necessary, what about someone who's on a feeding tube, or a quadriplegic, who cannot be immersed in water, are they doomed to damnation?
John 3:3 (King James Version)
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
???
So even if we arent saved, we go to heaven anyway?.
Not lost, but not saved? I'm pretty sure the bible only talks of entering the kingdom of God, or suffering eternal damnation, there is no in between.
Your argument is baste on your ignorance of the scriptures. Don't you know that the Bible speaks of three resurrections? Do you know that all those who died without Christ are not lost, nor are they saved? Do you know that the scriptures say that all those who have died, saved or unsaved will be resurrected?
My sister is getting baptised tommorrow, just letting you guys know.
It is always a joyous occasion to hear about. I wish your sister the best in her future endeavors. RD
yes usually i would agree with you, but religion is a preference, by that i mean someone is capable of living perfectly fine without it, just as you might allow a child to decide which juice they want to drink, i would allow the child to make up their mind about religion when they feel they are ready, and there is no disadvantage to not being brought up in a religious evoirment it will not affect them and they are may change their belief many times throughout their unbringing before finally settling on one belief when they are older,
i do not believe indoctrinating them is the right way to go, because essentially you are taking-away or hindering their ability to make up their own mind, and that is not right! If you instill that belief in their mind at a very early age they will be more more inclided to accept that belief be it a true or false belief.
Thank you, your answer was well thought out and I agree with it for the most part. But, "indoctrinating" is a pretty strong word, normally associated with the brainwashing of prisoners not child-rearing. Children need a good liberal arts education that includes religion. It is our job as parents to provide guidance and opportunity to our kids. Once they are adults they will choose their own paths based on education and information.
I was talking about this earlier and want to know what you think. I know some people who are quite concerned that I've no interest in getting Baptised. They see it as a requirement if you're truly one of "God's People"
But I see it differently. It's just water, jumping in it won't actually make me a better person, spiritually or otherwise. And if God can see into my heart, then it's certainly not a demonstration of faith, because he wouldn't need to see me do that to know where my loayalties are...
It is however a demonstration of faith to other people, namely those who want to see me do it in the first place. But again I have no interest, my path with god is personal, and doesn't required validity via some ancient aquatic ceremony...
what do you think?
well i wouldn't hide religion from children either, i would maybe explain what other people believe but i wouldn't tell them that that such a belief is right or wrong.
Ultimately judgment as to the final rest is "entirely" in the hands of the Christ, as "all" authority in heaven and on earth are His (Matt. 28:18), and we are to be judged by His words (Romans 2:16). To "semantically" question his commands as a lawyer would do in Court is of no avail. Baptism is not a "work", it is an act of good Conscience to show to God and the World that the one requesting the atoning power of Christ believes that it is so. By your logic, the act of breathing is a work or a labor to live. Baptism is but a simple command of God to symbolically show the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ,"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; and like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4) It is how we come into contact with the blood of Christ (as we symbolically die as Christ did), it is how we gain entrance into the Church/Kingdom on earth (as the Christ gained entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven), as we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST(Romans 6:3) which is the Body, which in turn is the Church, which is made up of many parts but it still one body(Us, the single Christian), and that is how one becomes a part of the Kingdom of God, Christs' church here on earth. That same "KINGDOM" in which Jesus had given the keys of to the apostle Peter (Matt. 16:19).
This same Peter proceeded to use these Keys to open the door to the Kingdom here on earth on the day of Pentecost, when he stood up and preached the "first" gospel sermon (Acts 2:38), with his(Peters) words binding here on earth as they are in Heaven. And his words that are legally binding in this New Testament Covenant of Grace are as such. When asked by the people of the nation of Israel, what then must we do to be saved? Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you.......". Now, to semantically try and subvert this binding command, as I said would be like going into traffic court and telling the JUDGE, but sir I did not see the STOP SIGN.....do you think that would wash with the Judge? As I said, ultimately ALL Power has been granted Jesus, and it is HIS judgment to make, not mine....as I am not qualified to make eternal judgments. I am sure the Christ would in fact consider all things, such as Has this sinner at some time in the past been afforded the opportunity to be water baptized, but refused? After all he does know the content of everyones heart....I do not. RD
1. If someone believes whole-heartedly and accepts Jesus' gift of salvation by word and even makes public testimony, yet is not baptized, do they suffer eternal damnation when they die?
2. The bible also says many times that good works, actions, etc. are worthless to God. Baptism falls into that category, so isn't that a biblical contradiction?
3. Do you think that it is logical for God to place such a strict criteria and a confusing religious obstacle course in front of us to achieve salvation? I mean, if immersive baptism is absolutely necessary, what about someone who's on a feeding tube, or a quadriplegic, who cannot be immersed in water, are they doomed to damnation?
I was talking about this earlier and want to know what you think. I know some people who are quite concerned that I've no interest in getting Baptised. They see it as a requirement if you're truly one of "God's People"
But I see it differently. It's just water, jumping in it won't actually make me a better person, spiritually or otherwise. And if God can see into my heart, then it's certainly not a demonstration of faith, because he wouldn't need to see me do that to know where my loayalties are...
It is however a demonstration of faith to other people, namely those who want to see me do it in the first place. But again I have no interest, my path with god is personal, and doesn't required validity via some ancient aquatic ceremony...
what do you think?
For us Christians, we are at this moment being judged...we don't have to wait for Jesus to judge us when He comes. When Jesus returns, we will simply, those who are faithful, will be changed and assented in the air to meet Jesus.
1 Peter 4:17 (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The world will be judged at Jesus' second coming...judged and condemned. There is a big difference between being judged and being condemned. Jesus and the saints will rule together over the nations; the world will be at peace. At that time salvation will be purred out on all people. This is the time when the nations will be judged/evaluated, by what they are doing with what God has offered them. At the end of that period, a verdict will be given...Jesus will separate the proverbial sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
The problem is that none of these ideas, the way that you have structured the context of the scriptures, are founded upon actual scriptural teachings. A few ideas, incorrectly pulled from the text of the Bible, are heavily padded with imagination to produce a completely fictional account. The most blatant error is assigning a literal meaning to a book stated to be written in symbolic textual comparisons, for instance, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants- things which must SHORTLY take place. And He spent and SIGNIFIED it by His angel to His servant John (Revelation 1:1). The Greek word translated "signified" means to indicate something by a sign. In regards to the Scriptures its means a word or phrase that contains a hidden meaning. The word appears several times in the Gospel of John. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself." This He said, SIGNIFYING by what death He would die." (John 12:32-33). Jesus did not directly state that he would be crucified, but the meaning is hinted in the phrase "if I am lifted up from the earth." In case the reader missed the clue, John points that there is a hidden message by stating it was signified. The book of Revelation is written in hints. The message is not in the surface story, but in the hidden meanings behind the words.
The second error that many people make is in "flat out" ignoring Revelations stated time table of when these events were to take place, the time table. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God have Him to show His servants- THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John.......Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; FOR THE TIME IS NEAR" (Revelation 1:1,3). However the book of Revelation is understood, the majority of the things it discusses must be about things which would take place soon after it was written. Even at the end of the book, John is warned, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND (Revelation 22:10).
Then this very well leaves us with the working of a puzzle, one has everything there at their disposal in which to make a "complete" picture but it has been "deliberately" separated to hide the entire message of the picture. How can we be certain that we are assigning the correct meaning to the symbols, and not trying to make a circle fit where a square should go? Fortunately, God did not leave us completely on our own to decide what each various symbol means. The book of Revelation is written in a style very similar to many of the prophetic books of the Old Testament. God often gave the interpretation of symbol and used that symbol consistently. A person with knowledge of the Bible can generally come up with passages which explain the meaning of the "figurative words" or puzzle pieces in Revelation.
One rule of thumb to go by is very simple....if you interpret a symbolic script to make contradiction to other "literal" scripts of the bible that needs no interpretation....it would be wrongly interpreted. For God does not lie, yet men make mistakes. Thus, every thing must work in harmony with the scriptures to get the correct picture.
The book of Revelation, like older prophecies, is written as a series of pictures. The images describe, signify, or represent things in real life. If we can understand the meaning of each element in the picture, we can illuminate the complete scene. We will now give an example of such by taking one passage of scriptures from the book of Revelations showing how, when properly harmonized with the "literal" scripts of the Bible, it makes the picture "crystal" clear. I will let the Bible solve the picture puzzle offered in symbolic text in Revelation 20: 4-6 upon my next post. Due to the fact we are limited by the restrictions of how may words we may use on any one post.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on the their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4-6).
Who are these souls who reign with Christ for a thousand years? At the center of the this picture is a group of people. They are described as people "who have been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God," they "had not worshiped the beast or his image," and they "had not received his mark." Even without understanding all the imagery, it is apparent that John is describing Christians. But what is the BEAST that others are worshiping? The book of Revelation describes two BEASTS. Revelation 13:1 speaks of a beast that rises from the sea and is worshiped (Rev.13:8). The same chapter then describes a SECOND BEAST starting in verse 11. This beast rises from the EARTH and sets up an image of the FIRST BEAST for the people to worship (Rev.13:14-15). The worshipers of the beast are marked (Rev.13:16). We could launch into a detailed study of Revelation 13, but let it suffice that the beast was the false religion of emperor worship promoted at time in those days by the Roman populace and the Roman government. What is more interesting than the beasts themselves is the power behind the beasts. The beast from the sea is summoned by a dragon (Revelation 13:1). The beast for the land spoke in a voice like the dragon (Rev.13:11). We do not have to guess what the dragon represents. We are told this forthrightly and straight out. "He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the DEVIL AND SATAN" (Rev.20:2). Hence, we understand that the beasts and the images are all representatives of SATAN. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder. For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to the works" (11 Cor.11:13-15).
The marks spoken of in Revelation that many were subjected to are also described in literal scripts. Marks have long been used to indicate ownership, cattle have branded since ancient times to show who owns them. Even people have been marked to show their slave status (Ex.21:2-6). The concept of slaves and masters is presented in Romans 6:16-18. All Christians were once slaves of sin. Satan was our master before Christ set us free. But while in sin, Satan would have his MARK on us, showing that we belonged to him. Now that we are slaves of righteousness, Satan's mark is removed and we carry the mark of Christ.
Therefore, the center of John's scene is a group of Christians who have been martyred for their faith in Jesus and the Bible, who have refused false worship, and are not servants of sin, and thusly are not MARKED. Though these people had died for their faith, John tells us they are alive and reigning with Christ. "For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life though the ONE(Christ) (Romans 5:17). Paul also tells us, "This is a faithful saying; For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him If we endure, We shall also reign with Him" (11Tim.2:11-12).
That brings up the next obvious question "when is Christ's reign?" In a parable, Jesus spoke of himself leaving to receive a kingdom (Luke 19:12). After Jesus' ascension into heaven, Paul tell us Jesus is currently reigning. "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" (1Cor.15:25-26). The end of his reign comes when death is conquered and that takes place at Christ's second coming. "Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts and end to all rule and all authority and power" (1Cor.15:24). Christ's reign cannot begin his return, because his return marks the end of the world.(11Peter3:10). The Christ already sets in reign of His Kingdom, the church is called Christ's Kingdom. "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love. (Col.1:13). Christians are citizens of the kingdom that Christ rules. It is not a kingdom with physical borders. It exists in the hearts of people. "Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of th world. If my Kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but not My kingdom is not from here." Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth"(John18:38-39). The book of Acts describe the fact that Jesus now sits in reign upon the throne of David and the nation of Israel, spiritually (Acts 2:30-37). The symbolic 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ has already began and we are now living in the last days as Peter tells us (Acts 2:14-29). Do not make the same mistake that the Jewish people of the first century made, in expecting the "KING/JESUS" to sit in reign literally over a physical militant kingdom. As Christians we live and are a part of the "spiritual kingdom" of Christ, and that kingdom is the the Church.
The length of Jesus' reign with his saints is called a thousand years. This symbol is used often in the scriptures of the Bible to refer to large, but complete sets. For example, in Deuteronomy 7:9, "Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments," Moses is not limiting God's mercy to EXACTLY one-thousand generations, but to indicate that He is always merciful. "For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10). God is not saying there is exactly one thousand hills with His cattle, but to say that all the cattle in the world belong to Him. The thousand year reign is not "LITERAL", not exactly a thousand years, but a symbol of a long and complete reign that encompasses the rest of the world's years. It does not make sense to take one symbol and assign it a literal meaning while assigning figurative meanings to all the other symbols in the same passage. Yet, many have done so when they declare that Jesus will reign for a thousand years.
The symbolic "first" death and "second" death are also misunderstood by many. The second death is described in Revelation 20:14-15, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." If one's name is found in the book of life will not be a part of the second death, the death that comes upon the final judgment of God.
The "first" resurrection from death is also symbolic in nature. Now consider how people become Christians. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in a newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." (Romans 6:3-6). Therefore, becoming a Christian is the first resurrection when we rise up out of the waters of baptism to walk in a new life....born again. Since Christians participate in the first resurrection it is logical that they in their escape from sin should not join others in the second death. And if there is a first resurrection, there must be a second (Thessalonians 4:13-18)
