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Quran Leads The Way to Science (Video)

 
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 06:47 pm
@The Submitter,
Quote:
Now I leave the sincere reader to decide which religion (Islam or Christianity/Judaism) and which book (The Quran or the Bible) honors the woman!


Not everyone who is not muslim is christian, or vice-versa.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 07:19 pm
@The Submitter,
Islam is wrong.:thumbdown:
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2007 10:27 pm
@The Submitter,
There you go again submitter, letting that quran do the thinking for you. Sheep tend to do that (let others think for them). First, I am not a hater of Islam, I just think its a sham like all religions. Second, you proved my point about Islam and women.
"Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will."

Since when is it mans right to inherit woman? unless you view woman as inferior. So do you see woman as inferior? Well you answered that with the next verse:
"..and for women are rights equal to the rights against them but men have a degree over them (in the context of divorce) in what is just."

"Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient,"

and finally:

"The Prophet said, 'He who has a slave-girl and teaches her good manners and improves her education and then manumits and marries her, will get a double reward; and any slave who observes Allah's right and his master's right will get a double reward."

Slave girl? well that sums up my point nicely doesn't it? And you provided the text submitter, thanks. By the way, I am not ignorant of the quran. You have chosen the verses of the quran that best try to prove your point. (which they can't even do that) but I have read verses in the quran that paint a much more accurate picture of Islam and it's attitude towards women. Here is a little hint, as you go through life you will find that actions always speak louder then words. The news is full of accounts that testify as to Islamic mens actions toward women. It is abhorrent. If you were to compile a list of human rights abuses from around the world, you would find that Islamic countries always rank at the top. A coincidence? I think not!

As far as christianity goes, I am not a subscriber. Perhaps someone else can respond to your allegations.
0 Replies
 
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 04:17 am
@The Submitter,
I've met these message board muslims before, they're great sport!

He will only reply with quotes from the Koran, and he will deliver exactly what you want. The Koran is the literal word of "God", he has no shame in anything that Muslims do.
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 05:58 am
@markx15,
Islam is a religion specifically crafted by a clever barbarian to meet the needs of a barbaric people. It remains a seventh century, tribalist, violence-based cult, that has held its believers back in every sense, and now threatens the world around it. The West's response cannot be to utter and listen to the standard old liberal tripe that urges us to 'understand', if not side with, our enemies, in order to satisfy an emotional 'rush' associated with defying The Establishment. The liberals tried passionately in vain to do that with Marxism until 1989, when the damned old thing imploded under its own dead weight and caved in on them. They now want to do the same with Islam. Defending Muslims, if not outrightly supporting them, is now in vogue in American academia and other liberal circles. It's the new form of Anti-Establishmentarianism. It's crap. If they had their way, the Muslims they're fighting for would decapitate them, beat their woman, and confine them to their homes, thus denied access to the world and education all their lives. No thanks. Anyone who promotes such an inhumane agenda is a kook.:no:
The Submitter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 07:08 am
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;11782 wrote:
Islam is a religion specifically crafted by a clever barbarian to meet the needs of a barbaric people. It remains a seventh century, tribalist, violence-based cult, that has held its believers back in every sense, and now threatens the world around it........ :


My friend, you can not hide the Truth. Islam is a very Clear and pure religion, nothing in it to hide. So again, I will let Islam itself respond to you because Islam can defend itself without any help from any person and let us discover the real barbarian!!


"We (Allah) have sent you (Muhammad) as a mercy for all nations" [Quran 21:107]


"On that account: We (Allah) ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

"O mankind! We (Allah) created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

"Fight in the cause of Allah (God) those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"


"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"Allah (God) does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. Allah loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

Allah Almighty loves those who restrain anger: "Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men; for Allah loves those who do good. (The Noble Quran, 3:134)"

Noble Quran,Verse 42:40 "The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) Loveth not those who do wrong."

The so-called "Jihad" Noble Verses came for specific times and places. They don't apply for all times and everybody! I can't slay you, a non-Muslim, just because you're not a Muslim. The pagan Arabs were very hostile people and only knew the sword as an answer. Many wars were imposed upon the Muslims, and thus, it is only normal and natural to find Noble Verses that deal with these specific hostile situations. But the Ultimate and Overall Message of the Noble Quran is PEACE, as clearly proven in the Noble Verses above.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, "When Allah had finished His creation, He wrote over his Throne: 'My Mercy preceded My Anger."

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said: "Do not consider any act of kindness insignificant, even meeting your brother with a cheerful face."

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "The most perfect of the believers in faith is the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest of you to their wives.”

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "O my people! You have certain rights over your wives and so have your wives over you. They are the trust of Allah in your hands, So you must treat them with kindness." (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Do not glorify me in the same manner as the Christians glorify Jesus, son of Mary, but say, 'He is a slave of Allah and His Messenger.' "

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said: "The search of knowledge is an obligation laid on every Muslim"

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said: "He who goes out in search of knowledge is in Allah's path till he returns."

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "The major sins are associating other objects of worship with Allah, disobedience to parents, murder, and deliberate perjury."

The Prophet (peace be upon him): "He who is not trustworthy has no Faith, and he who does not keep his Covenant has no religion."

I challenge any Jew or Christian (or anyone) to produce ONE, JUST ONE Noble Verse from the Muslims' Noble Quran that condones killing of innocent children, women or even hostile enemy men who drop their weapons before Muslims.
0 Replies
 
The Submitter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 07:26 am
@markx15,
Now let us see where is the real barbarian !!

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Samuel 15:3 “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass”

Psalm 137:9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock! (A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge)

Exo 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Deuteronomy 7:12 God ordered the Israelites to kill all the people of seven nations. He even adds, “show no mercy unto them”.

When Lot was a very old man, he had sex with his daughters on two succesive nights, and both daughters became pregnant (Genesis 19:31-38)

God didn't like that, so he punished David by having all his wives raped in public!(II Samuel 11:2-12:12).

"For those my (Jesus) enemies who they think I shall not be a king over them bring them here and chop their heads before me (Jesus) " The Christians God Jesus Christ saying that (luke19: 27).

"Think not that I (Jesus) am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a Sword" The Christians God Jesus Christ saying that in the Bible.

(Isaiah:13:16)-(Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.)

"But after they had moved it, the LORD's hand was against that city, throwing it into a great panic. He afflicted the people of the city, both young and old, with an outbreak of tumors. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Samuel 5:9)" >>>"tumors" was defined as "with tumors in the groin."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Leviticus 20:27 "And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them."

Numbers 31:35-40 "[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.......of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls]."


I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young).

So who is the Barbarian !!
The Submitter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 07:47 am
@markx15,
Here is something more that can help in finding who are the real barbarians!

The following are qouted from the Talmud[/B]:

"A Jew is permitted to rape, cheat and perjure himself; but he must take care that he is not found out, so that Israel may not suffer." - Schulchan Aruch, Jore Dia.

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim (non-jew) is like killing a wild animal."

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."

Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."

Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim (non-jew) in danger of death."

Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."

Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."

Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."

Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."

Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."

Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."

As soon as the King Messiah will declare himself, He will destroy Rome and make a wilderness of it. Thorns and weeds will grow in the Pope's palace. Then He will start a merciless war on non-Jews and will overpower them. He will slay them in masses, kill their kings and lay waste the whole Roman land. He will say to the Jews: 'I am the King Messiah for whom you have been waiting. Take the Silver and Gold from the Goyim.'" - Josiah 60, 6 Rabbi Abarbanel to Daniel 7, 13.

"Those who do not confess the Torah and the Prophets must be killed. Who has the power to kill them, let them kill them openly with the sword. If not, let them use artifices, till they are done away with." - Schulchan Aruch. Choszen Hamiszapt 425.5.

Says Jesus was a Sorcerer, Sanhedrin 43a . Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Horrible Blasphemy of Jesus, Gittin 57a . Says Jesus ( see footnote #4) is being boiled in "hot excrement."

"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.'

Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.

"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew." Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

"The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs." Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human." Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b

"If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog." Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

Abhodah Zarah 26b Tosephoth: "A Jew who kills a Christian commits no sin, but offers an acceptable sacrifice to God."

Sepher Or Israel (177b): If a Jew kills a Christian he commits no sin. He has done God a service.


I am sure if you reach this line you are probably feeling sick of what you read.

So, Who is the Barbarian !!
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 10:05 am
@The Submitter,
A barbarian is someone who commits a barbaric act, there are plenty of those people around the world, but none can use religion as its backing, the problem is not necessarily with the q'uran (having never read it I can't confirm), but the interpretations gleaned from it. So I ask you what is the truth?
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 10:49 am
@markx15,
So Submitter, What is your opinion of suicide bombers? What is your belief on martyrdom?
0 Replies
 
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 11:13 am
@The Submitter,
Two can play this game.

Koran 9:29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.

Koran 8:12 Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Koran 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Koran 9:73 Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.

Koran 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

Koran 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

Koran 22:19-22:23 Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'

Koran 70:39 We have created the unbelievers out of base matters.

Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah?

Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land
0 Replies
 
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 12:13 pm
@The Submitter,
Words are all very well and good. They can be powerful, profound, inspirational and even divine in their effect on the world, but they are just words, products of the minds of human beings. Even if you believe Bibles and Korans are spent and inspired by God or Jesus or whoever it is only as valid as the minds of the people who translated it and those it is intended to rule over.
I prefer to judge people and nations by their actions, not the words they profess to follow. I distrust most cultural icons, eastern, western, or otherwise including Marx and Stalin just for the record
The fact is that there are still elements in Middle Eastern culture that are obsolete perhaps barbaric is a loaded and innapropriate word, but I think obsolete is fair.
There are of course elements of all cultures that are barbaric and obsolete and I make no claims of perfection for mine but in most cultures they operate in spite of cultural norms no because of them.
It may be a very small minority of Muslim cultures that force women to be circumcized but it happens and not just in cults. It may be a minority of Muslims who see women who do not cover their faces as criminals, but it is not uncommon. Slavery is still practiced by an admittedly small number of Muslims but in most western cultures it has been outlawed for at least 140 years. Do western nations have a long way to go, of course we do but I would argue that in spite of our vast flaws I would argue we have a big head start.
I would be the last person to hold a Bible in his hand and shout Evil at another person's beliefs, but lets be clear on this..no single religion holds the key for the future of mankind and the very idea is extremely dangerous.

There is much divinity in one Persons spirit and one persons mind and heart and since we are the ones who have to live in this reality it is human minds, hearts and spirits that will govern the world and its future. When the divine come to earth and sets up shop here I'll be the first to show up and ask her or him or it the truth, until then make your own decisions
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 03:11 pm
@markx15,
Global View - WSJ.com

Islam's Other Radicals

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- At this landmark Summit on Secular Islam, there are no "moderate" Muslims.

There are ex-Muslims: People like Ibn Warraq, author of "Why I Am Not a Muslim," who doesn't want an Islamic Reformation so much as he does a Muslim Enlightenment. There are ex-jihadists: people like Tawfik Hamid, who, as a young medical student in Cairo, briefly enlisted in the Gamaa Islamiya terrorist group and who remembers being preached to by a mesmerizing doctor named Ayman al-Zawahiri.

There are Muslim runaways: People like Afshin Ellian, who in 1983 fled Iran -- and the threat of execution -- on camelback and is now a professor of law at the University of Leiden in Holland. (Now threatened by European jihadists, he lives with round-the-clock police protection.) There are experts on Islamic law: People like Hasan Mahmoud, a native Bangladeshi who, as director of Shariah at the Muslim Canadian Congress, was instrumental in overturning Ontario's once-legal Shariah court last year.

There are even a few practicing Muslims here, such as Canadian author Irshad Manji. Ms. Manji, whose documentary "Faith Without Fear" airs on PBS next month, describes herself as a "radical traditionalist" and draws a sharp distinction between Muslim moderates and reformers: "Moderate Muslims denounce terror that's committed in the name of Islam but they deny that religion has anything to do with it," she says. "Reform-minded Muslims denounce terror that's committed in the name of Islam and acknowledge that our religion is used to inspire it."

The difference is not trivial. For more than five years, the Bush administration has been attempting to enlist the support of the so-called moderates in the war on terror -- its definition of "moderate" being remarkably elastic, to put it charitably. To take one example, administration emissary Karen Hughes has "reached out" to such figures as Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, head of al-Azhar theological university in Cairo, with whom she had a "wonderful meeting" in September 2005.

___________________

Click for the rest
0 Replies
 
The Submitter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 05:45 pm
@markx15,
It seems I have exposed in my last post something dark and evil which was ment to be hidden thats why I got this flood of replies containing false allegations against Islam. I can answer each one of those false allegations if you have posted them gradually but it seems you want to divert the attention from the main topic of the original subject and consume my time in just defending The Noble Quran and Islam against your false accusations and lies.

However, I prefer to let a Jewish writer "Uri Avner" to answer you:

Uri Avnery is an Israeli author and activist. He is the head of the Israeli peace movement, "Gush Shalom". Welcome to Gush-Shalom, Israeli Peace Bloc.

Muhammad's sword

Pope Benedict XVI in the service of George W. Bush

By Uri Avner

09/24/06 "Information Clearing House" INFORMATION CLEARING HOUSE. NEWS, COMMENTARY & INSIGHT

-- -- Since the days when Roman emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the emperors and the popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some emperors dismissed or expelled a pope, some popes dismissed or excommunicated an emperor. One of the emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when emperors and popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a worldwide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "clash of civilizations".

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the Prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:


Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.


These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On 29 May 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul), fell to the Turks, putting an end to the empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, Verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant Verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the Prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favourites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

There no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

Why? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "global war on terror" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

Uri Avnery is an Israeli author and activist. He is the head of the Israeli peace movement, "Gush Shalom". Welcome to Gush-Shalom, Israeli Peace Bloc
Red cv
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 06:32 pm
@markx15,
Globally Islamic countries rely on "Aide" to feed their people, why because they'd rather practice killing visa vie Jehad and they are slaughtering Muslims, Jews, Budist, Infidels the list of those who die in the name of Allah surpasses any other genocide in the history of this planet. It is not a religion of peace, it is a religion that is trying to quietly force democratic countries to pander to Islam thus slowly enforcing Islamic beliefs down our throats. I for one have had enough, there will be no fifth column in the West because we will fight against further Islamic interferance in a "Christian Country". The truth about Islam from a female view:

How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam
Is it racist to condemn fanaticism?Phyllis Chesler
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 07:00 pm
@The Submitter,
The Submitter;11807 wrote:
It seems I have exposed in my last post something dark and evil which was ment to be hidden thats why I got this flood of replies containing false allegations against Islam. I can answer each one of those false allegations if you have posted them gradually but it seems you want to divert the attention from the main topic of the original subject and consume my time in just defending The Noble Quran and Islam against your false accusations and lies.

However, I prefer to let a Jewish writer "Uri Avner" to answer you:

Uri Avnery is an Israeli author and activist. He is the head of the Israeli peace movement, "Gush Shalom". Welcome to Gush-Shalom, Israeli Peace Bloc.



Quote:
I will let Islam itself respond to you because Islam can defend itself without any help from any person and let us discover the real barbarian!!

Quote:
However, I prefer to let a Jewish writer "Uri Avner" to answer you:

You wrote both of these above statements.
Quote:
I can answer each one of those false allegations if you have posted them gradually but it seems you want to divert the attention from the main topic of the original subject and consume my time in just defending The Noble Quran and Islam against your false accusations and lies.

I'm only asking one question, which of the quotes above are you making a false statement? In my eyes one of them is false, which one? Being Allah doesn't need anyone to defend him why would you reference a Jew?
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 07:56 pm
@The Submitter,
Don't argue with barbarism. Just fight it. This isn't a war of logic. This is a war of religion, blood and soil. This is a fight for our God, people and land. We don't need to justify ourselves to anyone, much less to those who oppose us.
0 Replies
 
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 07:33 am
@The Submitter,
Apparently my false allegations came directly from the Koran, so that must mean Allah has made false allegations! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 09:21 am
@The Submitter,
The enemy of Islam is education. Muhammed was a thief and a murderer, thus is it any wonder that Muslims kill with such reckless abandon and then claim it was jihad. Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. America can help make that happen.
0 Replies
 
The Submitter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 11:13 am
@markx15,
The original topic of this discussion post was "Quran Leads The Way to Science". However, Some of the anti-truth guys here tried and keep trying to divert the discussion away from this original topic. Why is that! The only reason is that they got No rational reasoning to debate it. They just want to use all their Weapons of Mass Deception to scare people from knowing Islam and the light of Truth as their holy scriptures are full of errors and conrtadictions which are completely contradicting with the well-established modern scientific facts. Therefore, they can not use their holy scriptures to compare with the Noble Quran, the true words of Allah (God). So the only thing they can do is throw all repeated false allegations and LIEs against Islam which have been answered many many times along the years and if you try to respond to them again with rational answers they will repeat them again no matter what your answer is.

If you answer them from Quran and Islamic sources, they would say that's not acceptable as we don't believe in Quran or they will do their best to twist the words. If you answer them by what non-muslim Scientists said about the miraculous scientific facts in the Quran, they would even say that those world's known Scientits are ignorant. If you answer them by quoting from a non-bias Jewish or a christian writer, they would say "why you need a Jewish/Christian writer to answer on behalf of you" !!!!! .... etc

So to those anti-Truth, anti-Islam persons, I suggest anyone who wants to discuss a new topic against Islam, can open a new thread and throw all his best shots against Islam but he must stick to that topic (the topic of the thread).

Here, I will just continue posting anything related to Quran and modren Science. Any attempts to divert the topic, I will not respond to it.
0 Replies
 
 

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