firstly, thanks for the welcomes, joe, jdnobody and twyvel.
i must say that i began this thread agreeing pretty much with jonat's assertions in his discussion with joe, before moving on to agree with joe in his discussions with jdnobody and twyvel, so my confusion between the two forms of dualism has sprung, in part i believe, from that. but thanks for the clarification on the two forms of dualism.
I believe that the "subject-object dualism" at issue here is very different from "mind-body dualism," although I've mentioned elsewhere
that "non-dualists" may tend to confuse the two.
i would just like to clarify whether you're a dualist in both circumstances? i gather this from comments such as:
"Thought" is neither matter nor energy.
this to me would strike as a dualist approach to the mind-body relationship, distinct, as you say, from the subject-object relationship which i have no problem in agreeing with. jonat, from memory asked you to define what thought is, then, if it is not matter, or the property of matter, and i believe it seems a rather valid question. not being a dualist in this respect, i have no real concept or idea of what, beyond the materialistic world we live in, could produce or "house" thought. this is why i believe thought, while in itself not being made of matter in that you can empiracally see or touch or smell it, is, however, some kind of emergent
occurance coming forth from the physical firing of neurons in the brain. the relationship between mind and the brain, as i see it, is too intwined as to think that they are distinct.
basically, my objection to the mind-body dualism is that, if the mind and thought are not an emergent property of the brain and the firing of neurons, then what are they? in what manner can we say they "exist" in the materialistic universe? where do they exist?
in defence of the illusion of free will, i would offer that all things, all decisions, all actions are directly caused by preceding factors. nothing just arises out of nowhere. for example, while we don't have any idea whether it will rain on july 4th this year, or we don't know the outcome of the numbers appearing on a roll of some dice, i would still offer that, the weather on july 4th, or the numbers that DO appear after rolling them, could not have been any other way. the weather on july 4th would have been directly related to the preceding weather conditions, the air pressure, wind, etc, or the speed of the roll of the dice, the angle in which the dice are propelled, etc, and they, in turn, would have been reliant on factors preceding that, and so on. if all things are reliant on preceding factors, and nothing spontaneously arises out of nowhere, one can say that everthing is linked, cause and effect, the combination of both nature AND nurture, right back to, as far as i can tell, the beginning of time itself. thus determinism.
the usual objections of quantum factors, as i believe has already been brought up in the earlier part of the thread, are also determined, in fact, also. they may only appear random and spntaneous as a result of the infallibilily of man, that what appears as random is due to a lack of knowledge, that either may one day be found out, or, in fact, may never be found out due to factors beyond the capabilities of our human brains. there are other more eleoquent defences that i've read but that's somewhat of the gist of it.
even the "choice" of making this post could be said to not be anything spontaneous, but it was inevitable, being reliant on preceding factors... the fact i have an interest in philosophy, the fact i found this thread and read it and found various interesting posts, the fact i made a previous post, was warmly recieved, and wanted to expand on a point, and so on. if i had of not made this post, it would have been, then, for reasons of their own, perhaps because i found the topic not worth the effort and so forth. but seeing i'm about to press "post" that set of circumstances is thus not an option at all.
this is probably a rather clumsy beginning explanation, however it'll do. you could say it was inevitable also given the fact it's early in the morning and i could do with some food in my stomach.