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Absolute determinism and the illusion of free will.

 
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2004 04:57 pm
*L* I love it! An automatic censor. Smile
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twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2004 05:20 pm
Yes, JLNobody
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2004 05:45 pm
truth
Twyvel, very nice, so much in the spirit of the Buddhist Heart Sutra.

P.S., can't there be experiences without experiencers?

Sorry, I misunderstood your rhetorical question: "If there is no 'one' to awaken, can awakening be an experience?" As I understand Buddhism, one who has awakened cannot be consciously aware of having awakened--that would imply a self perceiving/experiencing something about himself, as an object of awareness, and thus remaining unawakened..
0 Replies
 
twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2004 06:02 pm
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acepoly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2004 07:25 am
But experiencing awakening is completely a linguistic definition which might vary from person to person. Just as I can say I was awakened when I felt inspired, so too can I take it not as an experience of awakening because I would claim ignorance of a definition of awakening.

Awakening is what you want it to be. That's it.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2004 07:48 am
twyvel wrote:
Yes, JLNobody




I know how unkind this next comment will sound, but, since I consider them to be a blight on the planet, I have made a commitment to comment on belief systems about REALITY no matter where I encounter them



If you could just step out of this non-person you suppose you are, Twyvel, and take an open-minded look at some of this nonsense you write, you probably would start laughing with gusto immediately after throwing up.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2004 03:27 pm
truth
Frank, I wish you could just take on faith for a moment the possibility that you are speaking, just as Twyvel, Fresco and I are, from a PERSPECTIVE or paradigm (a framework of assumptions that define appropriate evidential norms, questions, assumptions, etc.) that is RELATIVE to your (our) experiences, commitments and needs. And, furthermore,if you (we) could agree that your (our) paradigm is not A PRIORI absolutely the only one that can lay claim to understanding the nature of the way things are or what IS (i.e., reality), we would BEGIN to communicate. Your perspective (and that of Terry's and Joe's) rests on norms of objectivism, proof, logic and empirical evidence. That is appropriate to the positivst paradigm. I would not for a minute devalue it, given its obvious utilitarian benefits. I am sure that the three of us also value that paradigm for its present and historical importance for the acquisition of knowledge, its achievements of medical, engineering, and basic scientific advances. It is the great product of the Enlightenment.
BUT there are other paradigms which serve other functions, which, in my opinion, result in a profoundly enhanced self-fulfillment. This paradigm should not be advanced as an alternative to that which you guys advocate. I regret (and I speak, of course, here only for myself) that we have too often presented ours in that spirit.
I was with a group of men and women who meet each Saturday to meditate and chit chat about all kinds of things (we don't like to discuss philosophical or mystical issues unless someone brings up a "problem"), but one fellow, a very bright individual, one never to be taken lightly, confessed that for the most part his meditation efforts are based on faith, a faith that they will lead him somewhere. Most of the groups agreed that they too, rest on faith (an almost blind assumption that it is an appropriate means to a valuable end), but that each year that they sit, the need for this faith diminishes, and is replaced by a shift in perspective, a perspective that is essentially ineffable--which is a major reason they do not like to TALK, even to the theoretically sympathetic, about mysticism). I noted to them that, in my opinion, even science rests to a significant extent on "faith", that is to say on philosophical assumptions that are not themsevles subject to scientific scrutiny. But that the goal of scientific research is to USE this faith to achieve more substantial gains.
Religion as I know it, treats "faith" (qua belief system) as a goal, It stops there and rigidly defends that system, because there is no place to go from there.
I know I'm rambling. I'll refine these notions in responses to the inevitable and justifiable critiques.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 07:51 am
JLN

You are not rambling.

I would say that you (we) are not discussing "specific faiths or beliefs" except iconoclastically. i.e. to argue that even "science" has certain faithlike assumptions underlying it (ref; Godels Proof) which Frank and others do not always accept.

Thus on the basis that ALL "knowledge" to some extent involves "faith" , the non-dualist will seek those aspect of "knowledge" which do not fall victim to the more obvious pitfalls of a limited vision (like observer-observed). And in as much that the coherence of a traditional "self as observer" needs to be sacrificed in that quest, then a transcendent position is established.

So "faith" here is about what is rejected, not what is accepted.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 08:18 am
fresco wrote:
JLN

You are not rambling.

I would say that you (we) are not discussing "specific faiths or beliefs" except iconoclastically. i.e. to argue that even "science" has certain faithlike assumptions underlying it (ref; Godels Proof) which Frank and others do not always accept.


I am sure you are correct that there are "others" who "do not accept that science has certain faithlike assumptions underlying it" or "who do not ALWAYS accept it" -- but I can tell you that I am NOT one of those others.

I not only accept it -- I ALWAYS accept it -- and have offered comments to that effect on tens of dozens of occasions in tens of dozens of threads. I have, in fact, argued the point to a significant degree on several occasions -- getting into it rather extensively in an Abuzz thread just this week.




I understand the...frustration(?)...JL is expressing in the post above...because I am experiencing something directly akin to it in being unable to open your (the unholy trinity :wink:) eyes to the truth -- that you folks are constructing (have constructed) a BELIEF SYSTEM that you are now touting as truth.

I understand that you guys occasionally introduce caveats designed to make it look less a belief system -- but the fact that you do not acknowledge it as a belief system and indeed argue that it isn't is evidence enough for me to guess that you are all blind to the situation.


I truly intend to limit my comments in this direction as much as possible -- but when a posting such as Twyvel made up above comes along -- something is going to be said. I assure you all that I am not doing it to be a pain-in-the-ass or to be nasty. It is a matter of conscience -- and nothing less.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 08:41 am
Frank,

I note you did not discuss my second paragraph, and that you are still using the term "evidence".

What "evidence" do you seek ?

Ours is simply that dualism doesn't work at the epistemological level(Popper's falsifiability principle).
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 10:20 am
fresco wrote:
Frank, I note you did not discuss my second paragraph...


Re-read what I wrote. It impacts on your second paragraph quite appropriately.


Quote:
...and that you are still using the term "evidence". What "evidence" do you seek ?


Well, I used the word "evidence" in this sentence:

Quote:
...but the fact that you do not acknowledge it (your belief system) as a belief system and indeed argue that it (the belief system) isn't (a belief system) is evidence enough for me to guess that you are all blind to the situation.


The "evidence" I am using here is...

...a) the fact that you do not acknowledge your belief system to be a belief system
...b) the fact that you actually argue that your belief system is not a belief system.


I am using "evidence" to mean a sign or indication of something -- specifically in this case, evidence that you folks are blind to the situation. And because there certainly is nothing conclusive about the evidence, I hedged my comment with an indication that I was using the evidence to facilitate a guess.

Quote:
Ours is simply that dualism doesn't work at the epistemological level(Popper's falsifiability principle).


What could I tell ya???

Much better minds than mine have called Popper's falsifiability principle into question -- and quite honestly, my mind no longer functions at a level where I can deep think this to a conclusion. Seems to me Joe, who is much better than I at this sort of thing, has indicated skepticism with how you are applying this principle.

In any case, from the standpoint of functioning as a human being -- I must take the world for granted, so to speak. All this MAY BE an illusion -- or something much further afield from what we all suppose it to be than any of us can even imagine -- but I have got to function in it, and assuming dualism to get that done makes sense to me.

BOTTOM LINE: WE DO NOT KNOW THE NATURE OF REALITY! (I don't know it; my guess is you don't either.)

When you get to the point where that is being stressed -- rather than your many guesses about REALITY that you do stress -- we will coincide in our thinking. Until then, I will continue, as repectfully as possible, to call attention to the fact that your belief system does not impress me any more than some of the other belief systems I deal with regularly in the Religion category.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 10:41 am
Frank,

You have successfully "drawn a line" under "the box." Smile

Regards fresco.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 01:34 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Much better minds than mine have called Popper's falsifiability principle into question -- and quite honestly, my mind no longer functions at a level where I can deep think this to a conclusion. Seems to me Joe, who is much better than I at this sort of thing, has indicated skepticism with how you are applying this principle.

Frank, I've expressed a great deal of skepticism about how the non-dualists apply any scientific or logical principles, for the simple reason that such principles rest on a foundation of dualism. Non-dualism cannot be proven (or demonstrated or shown or suggested or any other word you'd care to choose) by means of dualistic evidence, for the simple reason that doing so would be to attempt to reach a valid conclusion on the basis of false premises. In other words, if non-dualism posits the identity of the observer and the observed, then any evidence, based on their non-identity, is presumably false.

Popper's falsifiability principle, for instance, is a perfect example to demonstrate what I mean. Popper, following Hume, argued that a scientific theory could never be "proven" inductively: at most, then, a "valid" theory was one that had not been falisified but that could be. But the primary method of falsifying a theory involves inductive testing. Inductive testing, in turn, rests on observations of evidence. Yet if there is no distinction between observer and observed, there can be no induction (indeed, there can be no deduction either). As such, the Popper falsifiability principle only works dualistically; it can never be used to support non-dualism because non-dualism rejects its fundamental premises.

The same can be said for any of the other scientific or theoretical breakthroughs that purportedly show that dualism "doesn't work." Quantum mechanics, fuzzy logic, string theory, M-theory, relativity: none of these makes any sense except dualistically. Using any of these as support for non-dualism, therefore, is akin to Baron Munchhausen's feat of lifting himself up by pulling on his own pigtail. It is an edifice built in mid-air.

But I'll make a deal with any or all of the "unholy trinitarians." If you can demonstrate to me how dualistic science or logic (and I would maintain that all science and logic, as we know it, is dualistic) can be valid non-dualistically, I will become a willing convert to the Church of Non-Dualism. To make your task even easier, you need only answer the following: how does Popper's principle of falsifiability operate in a non-dualistic universe?

Give a satisfactory answer to that, and I will renounce dualism forever.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 05:32 pm
Joe,

The reference to Popper's Principle should be taken as discursive, not descriptive.

In explanation an example taken from psychology is the discursive "equation"

SELF ESTEEM = SUCCESSES(divided by)PRETENSIONS.

Here it is not suggested that actual measurements are possible, but if they were, then the dependent variable would be semantically related to the independent variables as a function of a mathematical quotient. The mathematics (like a picture) is used for simplicity and may capture the essence better than mere words.

In the same way the semantic field in which Poppers Principle is understood can be discursively utilized to reject "paradigms" which "fail epistemologically." Dualism "fails" at the level of observer-observed (Heisenberg).

BUT by the same argument that you interpretated my own application as descriptive and hence "wrong" I accuse you of wrongly using "cause" and "evidence" as arbiters of the epistemological adequacy of non-dualism because there are defined by and remain entirely within a dualist paradigm. (EDIT: You are aware of this but cannot escape from it)
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twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 05:44 pm
Frank wrote:


Quote:
Quote:
I know how unkind this next comment will sound, but, since I consider them to be a blight on the planet, I have made a commitment to comment on belief systems about REALITY no matter where I encounter them



If you could just step out of this non-person you suppose you are, Twyvel, and take an open-minded look at some of this nonsense you write, you probably would start laughing with gusto immediately after throwing up.
fresco's comments earlier.

Quote:
I truly intend to limit my comments in this direction as much as possible -- but when a posting such as Twyvel made up above comes along -- something is going to be said. I assure you all that I am not doing it to be a pain-in-the-ass or to be nasty. It is a matter of conscience -- and nothing less.
joefromchicago though; i.e. what's so right about dualism that you blindly believe in it so dearly, even to the point of being close minded?,….

It is indeed you Frank that should acknowledge your Dualist Material Belief System as being the underpinning of all your comments.

[edited]
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2004 06:11 pm
truth
Joe, I must agree with you that, as far as I know, all scientific statements, and this might include all philosophical statements, are dualistic in nature. Indeed, all talk is dualistic, all thinking is dualistic. This is the reason mystics, when they are required to talk about their non-dualistic perspective either remain silent or talk in enigmatic parables or paradoxes, enigmatic talk that becomes clear once our dualism is suspended. This does not mean that reality is dualistic; only our attempts to analyze and talk about it are. To know reality intuitively, which is to say immediately/directly, a totally different non-dualistic approach must be taken. I will not presume to know that science can never function non-dualistically. For all I know theoretical mathematics and physics are accomplishing that right now. Fresco can address that far better than I. But our efforts-- and those of Tywvel in particular-- refer to the immediate grasp of our non-dualistic experience as a fundamental feature of human experience, the pre-reflective experience upon which the utilitarian but fragmenting process of dualistic analysis is imposed.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 06:45 am
twyvel wrote:


Your comments are beliefs based in your own material-dualist belief system, which you make ever effort to put forward through your direct/indirect statements about nondualism (and other issues).


That is absolute bullshit.


Quote:


I have no belief system. There are times when I make guesses -- which I attempt to clearly describe as guesses. If I ever put something down that obviously is a guess, but which I fail to label as one, please call it to my attention, Twyvel--and I will quickly identify it as a guess.

You, on the other hand, will not do that. You post as though you are sharing some great truth -- when the evidence clearly indicates that the best guess that can be made about your supposed truths is that they are merely the product of a belief system.

I do not know if dualism or non-dualism prevails.

Do you?


Quote:
In order to say I think X is false it has to be considered to be false in relation to something else,….which is a point you fail to grasp…..so it seems.


I have no idea of what the hell you are saying here -- but if you want to put it into a coherent form, I'll be happy to respond.


Quote:
In order to say,"I think nondualism is false", it is considered to be false in relation to dualism. Get it? We never get to that point with you and joefromchicago though; i.e. what's so right about dualism that you blindly believe in it so dearly, even to the point of being close minded?,….


I'm not really sure what it takes to finally get through the goddam concrete that seems to have taken residence in your head, Twyvel, but for the last three years, every time we've ever discussed this, I HAVE INDICATED TO YOU THAT I AM NOT SAYING I THINK NONDUALISM IS FALSE.

I HAVE NO GODDAM IDEA IF IT IS TRUE OR FALSE.

I DO NOT GODDAM KNOW.

Will someone -- ANYONE -- please interpret that for Twyvel, because I dare say that I have said it to him ten dozen times during the last three years -- and apparently he cannot grasp it.

I DO NOT ******* KNOW IF DUALISM OR NONDUALISM PREVAILS -- AND I AM EVEN OPEN TO THE NOTION THAT IT IS NOT AN EITHER/OR PROPOSITION BETWEEN THOSE TWO ITEMS. IT IS, IN MY OPINION, POSSILE THAT REALITY IS SO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE ARE ABLE TO COMPREHEND THAT THE DUALISM/NONDUALISM CONTROVERSY COULD BE AKIN TO ANCIENTS ARGUING OVER WHETHER SAILING WEST FROM THE EUROPEAN MAINLAND WOULD LAND ONE IN INDIA, CHINA, OR THE COAST OF AFRICA.

THERE MAY BE OTHER ALTERNATIVES -- BUT I DO NOT GODDAM KNOW!



Quote:
It is indeed you Frank that should acknowledge your Dualist Material Belief System as being the underpinning of all your comments.



Wake up! Get real. Then we will discuss this further.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 09:42 am
fresco wrote:
Joe,

The reference to Popper's Principle should be taken as discursive, not descriptive.

Nice try, fresco, but here's what you said in response to Frank: "What "evidence" do you seek ? Ours is simply that dualism doesn't work at the epistemological level(Popper's falsifiability principle)."

According to you, then, Popper's falsifiability principle is evidence. It's not discursive, it's not heuristic, it's evidence. It only becomes discursive when you are forced to defend it as evidence.

Frankly, I find this non-dualistic game of hide-the-pea is rather comical. First, quantum mechanics suppports non-dualism; then, when that doesn't work, it's Popper's falsifiability principle; and when that gets shot down, it's time to resort to that old favorite, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (HUP):

fresco wrote:
Dualism "fails" at the level of observer-observed (Heisenberg).

This is the purest nonsense. Dualism most certainly does not fail at the observer-observed level, for the very simple reason that the HUP assumes the distinction between the observed and the observer. The HUP merely asserts that, at the sub-atomic level, precise measurements are impossible. Although Heisenberg maintained that one could not measure both position and momentum simultaneously, he most certainly did not maintain that the reason for the uncertainty arose from the identity of the observer and the phenomena observed. Indeed, the HUP posits that the cause of the uncertainty is the interaction between observer and observed. Extinguish this distinction and the HUP is rendered incomprehensible.

fresco wrote:
BUT by the same argument that you interpretated my own application as descriptive and hence "wrong" I accuse you of wrongly using "cause" and "evidence" as arbiters of the epistemological adequacy of non-dualism because there are defined by and remain entirely within a dualist paradigm.

I use nothing as the "arbiters of the epistemological adequacy of non-dualism," for the obvious reason that non-dualism is not an epistemological system: it's a metaphysical system, and hence incapable of being tested by any means.

fresco wrote:
(EDIT: You are aware of this but cannot escape from it)

Yet more condescension from fresco.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 09:44 am
JLN: I think you'd have an easier time convincing people that your belief in non-dualism doesn't rest on faith if you'd stop citing "mystics" in support for your position.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 12:02 pm
truth
Joe, you say that I might more easily convince others of the realilty of my "belief" in non-dualism if I stopped citing [the authority] of mystics. I wonder if my reference to mystics were eliminated you'd stop characterizing my perspective as a "belief." Let me explain why I cite mystics. It's because at base non-dualism IS a mystical perspective. And as such it involves a wonderful advance in the existential life of the non-dualist/mystic. I would have no other reason to discuss non-dualism. I think that dualistic science does a great job as does dualistic philosophy. But the gains provided by the dualism of science, most philosophy, and theology are a far cry from those of mysticism.
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