7
   

Should Ex-smoker win $8 million?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 02:56 pm
@djjd62,
You're avoiding the issue. You know, and understand that government regulates, [relatively strictly] dangerous substances.

It definitely does not happen everyday that the government allows dangerous toxins to be spread around to the citizenry.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 02:56 pm
@aidan,
In many of these countries - the parents do not know the health risks of smoking. The cigarette companies market them and sell them cheap.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 03:16 pm
@Linkat,
I guess that could be true or could be what a lot of people believe, but I don't believe that people in other countries are not as intelligent and informed as the average American.
Are we talking about some indigenous tribe in the Amazon rain forest that doesn't have newspapers, magazines or tv? That's the only way I'd go for that argument.
And I do believe that all parents (who are not severely mentally challenged) know the dangers of handing their child a piece of burning paper to put in their mouths. Give me a break.

I'm not an apologist for the tobacco companies. I would never support them in any way, shape or form. But I can't be an apologist for people who show little or no common sense by doing something they are told will be harmful to them by the very company that produces the product and then ask to be paid for that lack of common sense when they are harmed by the product, exactly as they've been told over and over again that they very well might be.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 03:33 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
It definitely does not happen everyday that the government allows dangerous toxins to be spread around to the citizenry.


processed food is full of **** that will kill you, high fructose corn syrup contributes to the exploding rate of diabetes in the country, alcohol, guns (lead poisoning Razz ), lot's of stuff out there that the government okays will kill you if you abuse it

i'm not saying that any corporate scumbags should get off without consequences but i don't agree with this judgement
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 04:12 pm
@aidan,
It would depend where he is from - there are many islands that make up Indonesa so if he isn't living in one of the larger areas - it certainly is conceivable.

In any case, Indonesa has a huge smoking problem - they advertise like crazy and get kids hooked. It is not unusual for 12 year olds to smoke there.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 07:33 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

That's an absurd test. Companies can't put out certain products that are dangerous to the public, and addictive to boot, and then claim that people should have known better.

There's no company on the planet that is given that kind of license.

Companies that sell liquor have that kind of license. One of the biggest causes of death in the US is auto accidents. Should car manufacturers be allowed to sell cars that go over 30 miles per hour? There is an inherent risk in everyday activities. It is one thing if companies convince you there is no risk, but if everyone knows the risk and chooses to ignore it, no $8,000,000. I learned cigarettes are bad for you in the early 70's in grade school. To claim foul in 2010 doesn't fly with me.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 07:40 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

No. RJ Reynolds did not twist her arm every time she purchased a pack of cigarettes. She should take some personal responsibility like all the others smokers that have not sued are doing.

Smoking is purely voluntary (minus the exceptions I am sure someone will bring up). When you voluntarily place your self at risk, you voluntarily accept the risks associated with it.

Children don't voluntarily choose to breath the second hand smoke of their parents and family.

I know if I had a choice I would rather banish all smokers from NYC then find myself inhaling smokers' second hand smoke while walking down the streets of Manhattan.

This secondary exposure and the subsequent liability can be a factor in future lawsuits. For instance, spouses of workers from the many related asbestos industries can get mesothelioma from second hand asbestos exposure and can sue the responsible corporations as well as those directly working with asbestos.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 08:06 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Companies that sell liquor have that kind of license. One of the biggest causes of death in the US is auto accidents. Should car manufacturers be allowed to sell cars that go over 30 miles per hour? There is an inherent risk in everyday activities.


You are missing the point, Engineer. No company is allowed to make lead based paint if they warn you of the dangers. Alcohol is not loaded up with carcinogens. Alcohol, used in moderation, is good for ones health. There is no moderation level for tobacco.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 08:08 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:

Children don't voluntarily choose to breath the second hand smoke of their parents and family.

Their parents made that choice for them, as in just about everything else.

tsarstepan wrote:
I know if I had a choice I would rather banish all smokers from NYC then find myself inhaling smokers' second hand smoke while walking down the streets of Manhattan.

Would you also ban all the cars spewing out smog from their tailpipes? I don't have the hard numbers, but if you are walking down Manhattan streets, I would guess that you are getting much more car exhaust than second hand smoke. I do agree that people should not be exposed to second hand smoke as a condition of employment, but some exposure does not necessarily create liability. Radiation workers in some fields are routinely exposed to 10x the radiation the rest of us would normally see annually.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 08:14 pm
@JTT,
I understand the point, but people have the right to take actions that harm themselves. Companies take people up in planes and let people jump out of them. There is no benefit to society for this activity. They would be safer is they didn't do this activity. Those companies can still sell that service. Those who smoke claim pleasure from the activity. They know it has adverse health effects (or believe it is all a government conspiracy to take their cigarettes away) and that every cigarette is a risk just as every parachute jump is a risk. It's a risk they choose to take. No $8,000,000 award if I'm on the jury.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2010 08:29 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I understand the point, but people have the right to take actions that harm themselves. Companies take people up in planes and let people jump out of them. There is no benefit to society for this activity. They would be safer is they didn't do this activity. Those companies can still sell that service.


That company would not be able to offer the service if they added an unnecessary level of risk, say every fifth parachute would fail.

Why have you avoided the lead paint issue? Or the asbestos issue. Those companies could sell it cheaper than safe paints. That would benefit the consumer. Doesn't the consumer have the right to get a cheaper product? Why is everyone complaining about products from China?
lazymon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 08:17 am
Knowing they cause cancer, I still smoke. That is really unfair because how come I don't get any money from the deal?

Laughing
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 09:03 am
@JTT,
I think in the case of asbestos and lead the risk is disguised. I can't tell lead paint from regular paint, nor asbestos insulation from non-asbestos insulation. Cigarettes are clearly marked. It is obvious what they are and that their byproducts are hazards. For this woman to claim that she didn't assume the risk when she smoked sounds ludicrous to me.

As for parachutes, what if every 10,000th chute failed? Would the government stop them? Would you have a court case if you jumped for years but on this day your canopy collasped and you were severely injured?

I'm not saying I approve of smoking; I don't. I'm saying this woman was a willing participant in her smoking and there is no reason for her to be compensated for her illness. It's like suing the casino when you decided to roll the dice and lost.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 11:02 am
@engineer,
Quote:
I think in the case of asbestos and lead the risk is disguised. I can't tell lead paint from regular paint, nor asbestos insulation from non-asbestos insulation. Cigarettes are clearly marked. It is obvious what they are and that their byproducts are hazards. For this woman to claim that she didn't assume the risk when she smoked sounds ludicrous to me.


So why are cigarettes given that exemption? I have some asbestos insulation that I can price really well so shouldn't the consumer be given that choice. I'm willing to clearly mark it as such and point out the health hazards.

Same for the lead paint or a hundred/thousand other products that the government will not allow in the marketplace, and rightfully so.

The difference between the two is that I don't put addictive properties into my paint or asbestos to get people on the hook or to keep them there.

Quote:
As for parachutes, what if every 10,000th chute failed? Would the government stop them? Would you have a court case if you jumped for years but on this day your canopy collasped and you were severely injured?


If ten thousand parachutes were packed and one was purposefully designed to fail and they were handed out in a lottery sense where no one knew which one would fail, then yes, I believe the government would step in. I believe that those people would be criminally responsible for the death.

Is this scenario really much different than smoking?


Miller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 12:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

McGentrix wrote:

No. RJ Reynolds did not twist her arm every time she purchased a pack of cigarettes. She should take some personal responsibility like all the others smokers that have not sued are doing.

Smoking is purely voluntary (minus the exceptions I am sure someone will bring up). When you voluntarily place your self at risk, you voluntarily accept the risks associated with it.


Well, I would say that the fact that RJ Reynolds manipulates levels of nicotine in their product specifically in order to make it MORE addictive sort of gives the lie to the idea that they are not twisting anyone's arm. Wouldn't you say?

Cycloptichorn


Quote:
in order to make it MORE addictive


Nicotine adds flavor and makes for a more robust product. The response of the smoker to this product could be one of addiction. However, in and of itself, the product is not addictive in the absence of a smoker.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 12:33 pm
@Miller,
Quote:

Nicotine adds flavor and makes for a more robust product.


Bull ****. There is no evidence that nicotine levels have an effect on the 'flavor' of a ciggie. Lamest excuse ever.

Quote:
However, in and of itself, the product is not addictive in the absence of a smoker.


Purely idiotic. Nothing is harmful except in the presence of people...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 12:35 pm
all i've got to say is

http://www.euro-cig.com/gal_images/20060405102434.jpg

actually i like marlboros, lucky strike and camel (unfiltered) better
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 01:43 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

So why are cigarettes given that exemption? I have some asbestos insulation that I can price really well so shouldn't the consumer be given that choice. I'm willing to clearly mark it as such and point out the health hazards.

I'm ok with that as long as you fully disclose the presence to any future owners. Your house, your risk. What I disagree with is your ability to sue the manufacturer if it doesn't work out.

JTT wrote:
The difference between the two is that I don't put addictive properties into my paint or asbestos to get people on the hook or to keep them there.

But once again, everyone knows that cigarette smoking is addictive. If you know and smoke anyway, you assume the risk.

JTT wrote:
If ten thousand parachutes were packed and one was purposefully designed to fail and they were handed out in a lottery sense where no one knew which one would fail, then yes, I believe the government would step in. I believe that those people would be criminally responsible for the death.

But cigarettes aren't like that. Each cigarette produces a very small risk of disease, a risk that is known ahead of time (even if it isn't fully appreciated). If ten thousand chutes were packed and you were warned that the chance of failure was one in 10,000 and you picked up your chute and climbed into the plane, no lawsuit.

I'm not arguing in favor of the industry, I'm arguing that smokers are complicit in their smoking and shouldn't be kicking anyone but themselves when they get sick.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 01:45 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
I'm not arguing in favor of the industry, I'm arguing that smokers are complicit in their smoking and shouldn't be kicking anyone but themselves when they get sick.


amen
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2010 02:00 pm
@engineer,
Quote:

I'm ok with that as long as you fully disclose the presence to any future owners. Your house, your risk. What I disagree with is your ability to sue the manufacturer if it doesn't work out.



Even this doesn't fly, because of the danger to any children in the house. You can't willingly decide to take actions which are harmful to them, and they sure can't consent.

Cycloptichorn
 

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