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Why Fear Nihilism?

 
 
apehead
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 12:51 pm
From my limited experience with Nietzsche and Existentialism, it seems that widespread Nihilism would be a cataclysmic event for humanity. Why was Nihilism viewed in such a way?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 903 • Replies: 15
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Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 01:05 pm
@apehead,
I'm not sure. I don't think our natural instincts are that corruptible. Would you kill someone if you'd been convinced, logically, that there was no logical reason to call it immoral?
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 01:22 pm
@Jebediah,
Quote:
I'm not sure. I don't think our natural instincts are that corruptible. Would you kill someone if you'd been convinced, logically, that there was no logical reason to call it immoral?


Apart from the standpoint of instinct, an individual would still need to view homicide as advantageous to their ends. It seems unlikely that once absolved of any karmic baggage, people would begin to randomly commit transgressions against others.
I think that fear of holy retribution, and more relevantly in our current epoch, secular punishment, make individuals limit their behavior to "good" actions much more effectively than self enforced codes of conduct.
This isn't to say that in a Nihilistic, Anarchic state of being that we would automatically degrade into "Bellum omnium contra omnes". I think the market of human interaction would determine what actions are preferable in which situation.
0 Replies
 
amist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 01:36 pm
@apehead,
Nihilism is a broad term. There are really two kinds of 'nihilism'. The pessimistic, life denying nihilism of Schopenhauer and the rugged, life affirming nihilism of Nietzsche. People are afraid of this first variety because it can be very crippling psychologically if it takes hold of a person.
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 01:41 pm
@amist,
Quote:
There are really two kinds of 'nihilism'.


I suppose it's a question of differing interpretations of the concepts. I was rather relieved at the thought of a meaningless existence. The pressure was off! I find living for the hell of it much more appealing than some cosmic responsibility around my neck!
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:19 pm
@apehead,
The masses will only learn from any scripture what they want to learn, being selective, pick out what relates to their selfish desires.

Just look at the Christian god, he is shared by the jews and muslims, but each have their interpetation of the very same diety.

As there are 2 kinds of Nihilism, the ignorent mob will eventually confuse the 2 directions, and demagogues will help that process, thus it may go rampant, just like the holy wars, all manufacturing excuses to slaughter eachother and others.
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:24 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;169185 wrote:

As there are 2 kinds of Nihilism, the ignorent mob will eventually confuse the 2 directions, and demagogues will help that process, thus it may go rampant, just like the holy wars, all manufacturing excuses to slaughter eachother and others.


It seems to me that a nihilist would be less likely to listen to the self-righteous, as they are more likely to challenge the conclusions said self-righteous person draws from experience.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:31 pm
@apehead,
apehead;169186 wrote:
It seems to me that a nihilist would be less likely to listen to the self-righteous, as they are more likely to challenge the conclusions said self-righteous person draws from experience.
One first has to draw the conclusion that a person is indeed selfrighteous, many simple minded people are not able to do so. For any large mass of people following any teaching, it is in it's nature to draw friends and family to such teachings, and thereby draw all kinds of people. Many are lead by flock instinct and group think.
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:19 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;169270 wrote:
One first has to draw the conclusion that a person is indeed selfrighteous, many simple minded people are not able to do so. For any large mass of people following any teaching, it is in it's nature to draw friends and family to such teachings, and thereby draw all kinds of people. Many are lead by flock instinct and group think.


If that's the case, one could argue that those individuals aren't nihilistic, if they are willing to suspend their disbelief regarding meta-theories.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 07:34 am
@apehead,
apehead;169505 wrote:
If that's the case, one could argue that those individuals aren't nihilistic, if they are willing to suspend their disbelief regarding meta-theories.
Well, so is the case for any belive/teaching, some are strong belivers, some are confused, some are just interested in selective pieces, some are just there for the crowd ..etc.

You should know that, it should be very basic understanding of mass behaviour.
0 Replies
 
jgweed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 07:34 am
@apehead,
The rejection of the possibility of intrinsic value includes a rejection of absolute truth, right action, and knowledge, schemes of belief and living that has guided humanity for thousands of years. Not every man is able to understand or to live by this inconvenient state of affairs, and to. moreover, take personal responsibility for knowledge and value in a serious manner.
The very real danger is that a majority will think that the lack of objectivity implies that any value or any knowledge will do, that these perspectives are all equal or all "biased," and that one should live by the throw of the dice.
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 08:10 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;169523 wrote:
The rejection of the possibility of intrinsic value includes a rejection of absolute truth, right action, and knowledge, schemes of belief and living that has guided humanity for thousands of years. Not every man is able to understand or to live by this inconvenient state of affairs, and to. moreover, take personal responsibility for knowledge and value in a serious manner.
The very real danger is that a majority will think that the lack of objectivity implies that any value or any knowledge will do, that these perspectives are all equal or all "biased," and that one should live by the throw of the dice.


I understand that fear, but I think the condition of "living by chance" would be mitigated by empirical experience and the individual's goals (assuming they still had goals, and were still acting towards them). I think this is were Stirner's egoism can be helpful. He regards "fixed ideas" as meaningless, yet useful for achieving ends. So we may not have an external reason to continue to strive, or to care, but that doesn't mean we have to cease to, either.
0 Replies
 
attano
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 03:39 pm
@jgweed,
apehead;169136 wrote:
From my limited experience with Nietzsche and Existentialism, it seems that widespread Nihilism would be a cataclysmic event for humanity. Why was Nihilism viewed in such a way?


Nietzsche, wrote in a fragment of 1887
Quote:
The philosophical nihilist is convinced that all that happens is meaningless and in vain; AND that there ought not to be anything meaningless and in vain. But whence this: there ought not to be, From where does one get this "meaning," this standard?
So, you would have not been classified as a (philosophical) nihilist
apehead;169160 wrote:
I was rather relieved at the thought of a meaningless existence. The pressure was off! I find living for the hell of it much more appealing than some cosmic responsibility around my neck!


The problem with nihilism is, according to N., that men need to believe and that "Man would rather will nothingness than not will" (Genealogy of morals).The will of nothingness may become pretty destructive brought into actions.
On a private/personal level it need not to be so. Nevertheless, unless you live totally alone, you will probably feel constrained into social patterns and leading a kind of life that you feel is based on nothingness (by the way, Kaczynski tried to live totally alone and still he did what he did...).
Actually, there is also a tough chance that you observe that those values and norms not only are hypocritical and void of real content, but also that they are used as a tool for governing your life or to cast you out of society - so they are anyway around your neck. Hence you may rebel and there' s not such a huge leap before starting to plan terrorist attacks.

But again, it need not to be necessarily so... There are ashrams, hobbies, sports on tv, comfort food, pop music...
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 06:46 am
@attano,
attano;171791 wrote:

The problem with nihilism is, according to N., that men need to believe and that "Man would rather will nothingness than not will" (Genealogy of morals).The will of nothingness may become pretty destructive brought into actions.

Although I do agree that man would probably will nothingness before completely ceasing to act, I don't think that either are necessary consequence of nihilism of any kind.
attano;171791 wrote:
On a private/personal level it need not to be so. Nevertheless, unless you live totally alone, you will probably feel constrained into social patterns and leading a kind of life that you feel is based on nothingness (by the way, Kaczynski tried to live totally alone and still he did what he did...).
Actually, there is also a tough chance that you observe that those values and norms not only are hypocritical and void of real content, but also that they are used as a tool for governing your life or to cast you out of society - so they are anyway around your neck. Hence you may rebel and there' s not such a huge leap before starting to plan terrorist attacks.

But again, it need not to be necessarily so... There are ashrams, hobbies, sports on tv, comfort food, pop music...

Although I agree that you are still constrained when interacting with others, it is through voluntary choice that you have submitted to the rules of the game you play. To use your example, Kaczynski lived as a hermit, but decided to attempt to bring society down. Since he had shed the typical values of society, he was free to create his own. Now, depending on what your goals are, this could be a benign or violent transition, but at least you are free to make that decision solely based upon your goals.

Also, trading one set or normative values with another seems to always result in violence. Perhaps dropping normatives altogether would sidestep the problems of nihilism?
attano
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 01:43 pm
@apehead,
apehead;172063 wrote:
Although I do agree that man would probably will nothingness before completely ceasing to act, I don't think that either are necessary consequence of nihilism of any kind.


Indeed it' s like you say. But I wonder if logical consequences are a way to explain the impact of nihilsm on History. Dynamics in History are not necessarily logical, actually very rarely.

apehead;172063 wrote:
Although I agree that you are still constrained when interacting with others, it is through voluntary choice that you have submitted to the rules of the game you play. To use your example, Kaczynski lived as a hermit, but decided to attempt to bring society down. Since he had shed the typical values of society, he was free to create his own. Now, depending on what your goals are, this could be a benign or violent transition, but at least you are free to make that decision solely based upon your goals.

Also, trading one set or normative values with another seems to always result in violence. Perhaps dropping normatives altogether would sidestep the problems of nihilism?


If you can really drop them, all of them, it might. But is that possible?
Voluntary choice... really?

You describe how a former academic became a hermit and then the unabomber. But is that an explanation? How's that a man who chose to leave everything behind, then used all his intellectual skills to come back with a vengeance? Was he mad? Maybe it's true, the judge found that true (paranoid schizophrenia, according to Wikipedia). Maybe not. And if he was not, why has he done it?
He seemed quite happy to live alone in the mountains. Why did he care at all about the rest of us?

You say that he set new values and that this determined his goal to attempt to bring society down - and that he was free to choose that path as he was free not to choose it.
Sounds reasonable. There is no physical necessity, nor logical consequence between thinking that the industrial society has doomed humanity to sufferance and indignity and sticking bombs in mail parcels.
So, again, why did he choose the terrorist way? Why he chose that option and set that plan?
You seem to imply that he did so to live up to his values. Was is he still free in doing so?
Hence you add that trading one set of values with another on a society scale brings about violence. Historically this has proved quite true.

So no values, no problems - and men can perfectly live like that? Which men? Men that don' t want, not men that want nothing.

My (rhetorical) questions stop here. I apologize for being insisting, I meant no disrespect - just a way to invite you to reconsider your position.
I believe that your recipe is inhuman, all too inhuman (probably even subhuman) - but maybe it' s the future.
Mankind has evolved and changed so much, why not moving in that direction?
I just wonder if that day we will still feel alive... It reminds me of the film Zardoz.
apehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 02:36 pm
@attano,
attano;172188 wrote:
Indeed it' s like you say. But I wonder if logical consequences are a way to explain the impact of nihilsm on History. Dynamics in History are not necessarily logical, actually very rarely.


It's hard to single out any factor as entirely causal in any historical event. Although I'm willing to bet much more blood has been spilled for "ought" than "naught".


attano;172188 wrote:
If you can really drop them, all of them, it might. But is that possible?

Why wouldn't it be?
attano;172188 wrote:
Voluntary choice... really?

Sure. Given the present state of affairs, there are a myriad number of goals you can desire to implement via an even larger amount of means.

attano;172188 wrote:
You describe how a former academic became a hermit and then the unabomber. But is that an explanation? How's that a man who chose to leave everything behind, then used all his intellectual skills to come back with a vengeance? Was he mad? Maybe it's true, the judge found that true (paranoid schizophrenia, according to Wikipedia). Maybe not. And if he was not, why has he done it?
He seemed quite happy to live alone in the mountains. Why did he care at all about the rest of us?


He seemed to feel it his responsibility to liberate humanity from the oppression of the industrial world. He felt righteous enough in his conclusions to attempt to forcibly impress them upon others. Much like politicians.

attano;172188 wrote:
You say that he set new values and that this determined his goal to attempt to bring society down - and that he was free to choose that path as he was free not to choose it.
Sounds reasonable. There is no physical necessity, nor logical consequence between thinking that the industrial society has doomed humanity to sufferance and indignity and sticking bombs in mail parcels.
So, again, why did he choose the terrorist way? Why he chose that option and set that plan?
You seem to imply that he did so to live up to his values. Was is he still free in doing so?

He acted by his own will, so yes, he was free to make his choice. Of course, the consequence is that he is no longer free, because the ideals he wanted to impress upon others was in direct conflict with the ideals the United States government impresses upon us, and they have bigger bombs. That is the only reason ol' Ted is considered a maniac. He wasn't the strongest party in the contest.
attano;172188 wrote:
Hence you add that trading one set of values with another on a society scale brings about violence. Historically this has proved quite true.


Which is exactly why I postulate that normative values are much more dangerous than nihilism could ever hope to be.

attano;172188 wrote:
So no values, no problems - and men can perfectly live like that? Which men? Men that don' t want, not men that want nothing.

Men cannot live perfectly at all, ever. Any man. These men can still want, but think better of it than to want for the sake of the other, the hypothetical individual suffering because they are not around to your way of thinking. These men don't say "should" unless a specific end has been named.

"I want to be a good person"
"Don't know what good is. Sorry I couldn't be more help."

"I want to lift this box."
"You should use your legs to lift. Otherwise you might hurt your back."


attano;172188 wrote:
My (rhetorical) questions stop here. I apologize for being insisting, I meant no disrespect - just a way to invite you to reconsider your position.

Not at all, I thought this post rather good. I will warn you though, not nearly meaty enough to make me reconsider.
attano;172188 wrote:
I believe that your recipe is inhuman, all too inhuman (probably even subhuman) - but maybe it' s the future.
Mankind has evolved and changed so much, why not moving in that direction?
I just wonder if that day we will still feel alive... It reminds me of the film Zardoz.


So it is inhuman to admit ignorance? Jeez, what a species of know-it-alls!
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