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Statute law failed the unborn - Islamic Law could be a just response?

 
 
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 01:49 am
To willfully kill an unborn child is a crime against the law of man and a crime against the law of God, witness numerous injunctions against unlawful killing generally and abortion / infanticide specifically in the Koran, which also describes the only circumstances when deliberate homicide is lawful,

Being just retaliation for unlawful killing following a fair trial, during the course of Jihad or just war against an aggressor, who must first have waged war upon oneself, ones children, ones family or ones country, or for capital corruption, injunctions and penalties endorsed in Mosaic Law and Christian Testament, which Moslems recognize as proceeding from God.

Quote:
Since 1970 Abortion has taken billions of lives, this tract warns the abortion guilty their lives will be forfeit if prosecutions take place under the auspices of AL-ISLAM, on which basis it could be expected that the number of executions will commensurate with the number of abortions, and thus be in the millions,

Then anticipate the demise of virtually the entire medical, political and law enforcement establishments world wide, as the fulfillment of the prophesy of Jesus Christ comes to pass that, "children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death."
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jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 02:05 am
@Martin Timothy,
This post makes no sense whatever, sorry. Is it about abortion? islam? ethics? sharia law? What is the point it is trying to make?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 06:05 am
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168005 wrote:
To willfully kill an unborn child is a crime against the law of man and a crime against the law of God, witness numerous injunctions against unlawful killing generally and abortion / infanticide specifically in the Koran, which also describes the only circumstances when deliberate homicide is lawful,

Being just retaliation for unlawful killing following a fair trial, during the course of Jihad or just war against an aggressor, who must first have waged war upon oneself, ones children, ones family or ones country, or for capital corruption, injunctions and penalties endorsed in Mosaic Law and Christian Testament, which Moslems recognize as proceeding from God.

Jihad is not a defensive act, it can be aggressive. So what about sharia and capital punishment for adultery or homosexuality are they to be admired? Do you see examples of abortion being outlawed in modern Islamic cultures? Do you condemn any abortion for any reason?
Martin Timothy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 06:22 am
@xris,
xris;168067 wrote:
what about .. capital punishment for adultery or homosexuality?


The Koran does not endorse CP for either of those offenses, those who say it does have misinterpreted the scriptures, while persons carrying out executions for either of those offenses should themselves be prosecuted in a capital court!

xris;168067 wrote:
Do you condemn any abortion for any reason?


Yes!
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 07:59 am
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168075 wrote:

Yes!


What if the mother's life is at risk? Or the foetus is developing with abnormalities that would deny it a reasonable quality life?
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 09:50 am
@Martin Timothy,
where specifically in the Qur'an is killing the unborn child mentioned?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:13 pm
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168075 wrote:
The Koran does not endorse CP for either of those offenses, those who say it does have misinterpreted the scriptures, while persons carrying out executions for either of those offenses should themselves be prosecuted in a capital court!



Yes!
Then your wrong , the Koran does recommend the death penalty for justice sake and your views on abortion are beyond my understanding.
Martin Timothy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 06:42 pm
@xris,
josh0335 wrote:
What if the mother's life is at risk?


Natural miscarriage often occurs in entropic pregnancy situations, where the developing infant is not in the womb but someplace else, which does not give doctors or anyone else the right to kill!

josh0335 wrote:
Or the foetus is developing with abnormalities that would deny it a reasonable quality life?


If you were brought to trial after killing because you decided that "a reasonable quality of life" was impossible for the deceased, then went before a jury composed of those who are "gettin' along ok," despite any judgments you would have made regarding their physical and or mental properties, and even as Master Confucius assures us "for every day there is a dog," and that, "every dog has his day," would not the day be theirs after all.

salima wrote:
where specifically in the Qur'an is killing the unborn child mentioned?


In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful

..Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him, you shall honor your parents, you shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden, you shall not kill - Allah has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

Sura 17: Bani Israel - The Children of Israel - Verse 31 ..Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you, the slaying of them is great sin, and come not near unto adultery, for it is an abomination and an evil way. And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right, whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying, he will be helped. Khalifa translation.

xris wrote:
..you[']r[e] wrong, the Koran does recommend the death penalty for [adultery homosexuality]


Not wrong at all..

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful

Surah 24 An Nur - The Light - Verse 2 ..The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case in a matter prescribed by Allah if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Surah 7 Al Aaraf - The Heights - Verse 80 ..Remember when he said unto his folk : Will ye commit abomination such as no nation ever did before you, for ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

Quote:
In the case of adultery where similar text appears to endorse death, Jesus tells us to err on the side of mercy, while in response to homosexuality, the text expresses outrage and repugnance - it does not provide the death penalty!
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 04:03 am
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168322 wrote:
Natural miscarriage often occurs in entropic pregnancy situations, where the developing infant is not in the womb but someplace else, which does not give doctors or anyone else the right to kill!



If you were brought to trial after killing because you decided that "a reasonable quality of life" was impossible for the deceased, then went before a jury composed of those who are "gettin' along ok," despite any judgments you would have made regarding their physical and or mental properties, and even as Master Confucius assures us "for every day there is a dog," and that, "every dog has his day," would not the day be theirs after all.



In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful

..Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him, you shall honor your parents, you shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden, you shall not kill - Allah has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

Sura 17: Bani Israel - The Children of Israel - Verse 31 ..Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you, the slaying of them is great sin, and come not near unto adultery, for it is an abomination and an evil way. And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right, whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying, he will be helped. Khalifa translation.



Not wrong at all..

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful

Surah 24 An Nur - The Light - Verse 2 ..The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case in a matter prescribed by Allah if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Surah 7 Al Aaraf - The Heights - Verse 80 ..Remember when he said unto his folk : Will ye commit abomination such as no nation ever did before you, for ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
Very good but it says a child and it is gross exaggeration to include a foetus in this category. A child is assumed born, not as you would like it to be interpreted. Also it gives a pointed reason why you should not, "for the fear of poverty" Now if you wanted to be as devious as you in selecting scriptures, that might imply you could kill them for other reasons.

Religion and capital punishment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If you read any Islamic teachings or rely on Muslims to inform you, capital punishment is apart of their Sharia law, instructed by the scriptures in the Koran.
0 Replies
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 05:01 am
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168322 wrote:
Natural miscarriage often occurs in entropic pregnancy situations


Sure, but that didn't answer my question. If in mid or late pregnancy, the mother's life becomes endangered or there is a risk of her dying during child-birth, would you be aganist the abortion of the foetus/chld? Must the mother die naturally and potentially take the child with her to the afterlife, or should you save the mother's life by aborting?
salima
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 03:02 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;168509 wrote:
Sure, but that didn't answer my question. If in mid or late pregnancy, the mother's life becomes endangered or there is a risk of her dying during child-birth, would you be aganist the abortion of the foetus/chld? Must the mother die naturally and potentially take the child with her to the afterlife, or should you save the mother's life by aborting?


i like your question, josh-and i am not sure myself of the answer in the context of Islamic ethics. thanks for bringing it up. i dont know if you know the answer or not, probably you do-but here are the thoughts that came to my mind in trying to reason it out rather than look for someone else's answers on the web...

I guess maybe we have to go back to the many references in the Qur'an about the creation of human beings and their formation in the womb, the stages of pregnancy etc...that would give us a basis for the contention that a foetus is a human being as a premise to begin with...wouldnt it? or is that not the case, because there is a verse translated as 'and then We made you into another creature' ...does that imply that a foetus is not a human being yet perhaps-is the spirit breathed into it at some point in time later, which as i recall may not be clearly stated to be before or after birth...this is the first issue that has to be determined...

but after that...i honestly don't know what Man is expected to do when he has the scientific knowledge (also a gift from the creator) that could save the life of the mother but end the life of the unborn. even if we knew the outcome, which is not always that easy to predict-obviously we are expected to intervene if we know how when a person needs surgery to continue living-

i also am not sure how many actual medical situations arise where it is a certainty that the mother would die if the child were not aborted. is it also certain that if the child were not aborted and the mother died, would the child still survive without intervention...

maybe it is a moral decision that has to be made over again each time as humanity evolves in its experience and knowledge and inshallah spirituality. this one may not be totally spelled out for us...
Martin Timothy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 08:12 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;168509 wrote:
in mid or late pregnancy, the mother's life becomes endangered or there is a risk of her dying during childbirth..


With proper care and since the pregnancy has continued to the late stage without natural miscarriage, there should be no reason that such a situation would arise.

The woman in question will be attended by experienced in midwifery personnel, who will determine whether a Caesarian section is required, while those who made the initial prognosis will be put to the sword for attempted murder!
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 08:51 pm
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168005 wrote:
To willfully kill an unborn child is a crime against the law of man...

It's not a crime against the law of man, at least not in all countries. I'm not sure what you think "the law of man" means.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 03:42 am
@Martin Timothy,
Martin Timothy;168862 wrote:
With proper care and since the pregnancy has continued to the late stage without natural miscarriage, there should be no reason that such a situation would arise.

The woman in question will be attended by experienced in midwifery personnel, who will determine whether a Caesarian section is required, while those who made the initial prognosis will be put to the sword for attempted murder!

Your trying to invent a scenario where both can be saved. It ain't that easy in reality and you know it. When given the choice , mother or child , who do you decide lives and who dies. It can be even more difficult than that, what if the child's chances are virtually zero and the mother has an excellent chance of survival, if the foetus is aborted , what would you do?
0 Replies
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 07:19 am
@salima,
salima;168717 wrote:
i like your question, josh-and i am not sure myself of the answer in the context of Islamic ethics. thanks for bringing it up. i dont know if you know the answer or not, probably you do-but here are the thoughts that came to my mind in trying to reason it out rather than look for someone else's answers on the web...

I guess maybe we have to go back to the many references in the Qur'an about the creation of human beings and their formation in the womb, the stages of pregnancy etc...that would give us a basis for the contention that a foetus is a human being as a premise to begin with...wouldnt it? or is that not the case, because there is a verse translated as 'and then We made you into another creature' ...does that imply that a foetus is not a human being yet perhaps-is the spirit breathed into it at some point in time later, which as i recall may not be clearly stated to be before or after birth...this is the first issue that has to be determined...


I think for Muslims, and perhaps all theists, the determining factor is when the soul is given to the child, whether that be in the womb or after birth. Is a pre-soul foetus a human? I'm inclined to think not. But since we don't know exactly when the soul is given to the foetus, perhaps it's not a relevant question...

Quote:
but after that...i honestly don't know what Man is expected to do when he has the scientific knowledge (also a gift from the creator) that could save the life of the mother but end the life of the unborn. even if we knew the outcome, which is not always that easy to predict-obviously we are expected to intervene if we know how when a person needs surgery to continue living-

i also am not sure how many actual medical situations arise where it is a certainty that the mother would die if the child were not aborted. is it also certain that if the child were not aborted and the mother died, would the child still survive without intervention...

maybe it is a moral decision that has to be made over again each time as humanity evolves in its experience and knowledge and inshallah spirituality. this one may not be totally spelled out for us...
I think this is definitely one of those things that are not totally spelled out for us. My objection to Martin's position is that it's not always the case that both the mother and child can survive, as rightly pointed out by xris. So given this reaity, and it's definitely a reality, what is the moral thing to do when you may be in a position to save either the mother or child? From the Islamic positions I've read, the priority is always the mother. A mother will in most cases have family that rely on her and have people that will miss her if she was to die. From an Islamic point of view, the child that dies will enter paradise without a reckoning. The mother may have many obligations she may still have to fulfill e.g hajj, missed fasts etc. That's not to say that the child will not be missed. The hurt felt by a mother who has to abort her child must be beyond anything I can imagine, which no doubt would be shared by the father and other family members. That's why objecting to abortion in all situations is extreme.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:32 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;169026 wrote:
I think for Muslims, and perhaps all theists, the determining factor is when the soul is given to the child, whether that be in the womb or after birth. Is a pre-soul foetus a human? I'm inclined to think not. But since we don't know exactly when the soul is given to the foetus, perhaps it's not a relevant question...

I think this is definitely one of those things that are not totally spelled out for us. My objection to Martin's position is that it's not always the case that both the mother and child can survive, as rightly pointed out by xris. So given this reaity, and it's definitely a reality, what is the moral thing to do when you may be in a position to save either the mother or child? From the Islamic positions I've read, the priority is always the mother. A mother will in most cases have family that rely on her and have people that will miss her if she was to die. From an Islamic point of view, the child that dies will enter paradise without a reckoning. The mother may have many obligations she may still have to fulfill e.g hajj, missed fasts etc. That's not to say that the child will not be missed. The hurt felt by a mother who has to abort her child must be beyond anything I can imagine, which no doubt would be shared by the father and other family members. That's why objecting to abortion in all situations is extreme.


that's a beautiful answer, logical, practical and humane...thank you!
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