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Don't we all have to be agnostic?

 
 
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 12:41 pm
Because we don't know what happened before the big bang really do we ? so we have to keep all cards on the table ?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 763 • Replies: 16
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HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 01:16 pm
@Andarius1,
No! To make grouping is the basis of discrimination and comradery, all should be equal.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 01:32 pm
@HexHammer,
Yes, we should all be agnostics like me or prove your dogmatic reasoning.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 01:43 pm
@Andarius1,
You know...I'm really not sure...
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 01:46 pm
@Reconstructo,
I'm not sure that describes an agnostics perspective,but still humorous, all the same. :bigsmile:
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Seancha
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 01:55 pm
@Andarius1,
An agnostic is someone who can not prove or disprove something. And since a basic principle of philosophy is the belief that new evidence maybe found at anytime to prove or disprove, it would seem reasonable to believe that is a true statement.
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Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:06 pm
@Andarius1,
Andarius1;170052 wrote:
Because we don't know what happened before the big bang really do we ? so we have to keep all cards on the table ?


It gets tricky, because how do we know that we don't know? In spirit, I agree with you. But I do see a humorous trickiness in any rigid agnosticism. To say that we can't really say is to say something important, and it's even a sort of faith in the undesirability of faith. Even if you don't agree, do you see why I would suggest this?Smile
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Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:09 pm
@Andarius1,
I think that many just don't like the phrase, "I don't know" - so there's some natural aversion to the term agnostic; almost like you're admitting to being unsure (perish the thought!).

Of course, it's taken on a slightly different meaning in the past few decades - even the dictionary's have changed. Still, I take it to mean someone who doesn't not profess to have "knowledge" as opposed to "belief". But those are two merry-go-rounds we've made MORE than a few round trips on

Thanks
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Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:15 pm
@Andarius1,
I don't see it this way at all. Otherwise we should be agnostic about all things mythological. To name a few, Zeus and gremlins or my favorite, the flying pink elephant.

Now I know with absolute certainty that a majority of Christians would not accept or even given credence to the idea that Zeus might exist.

How many people say, they are unsure if gremlins exist and we should keep an open mind because they would help to explain why perfectly good machines break for no apparent reason.

Or the fact that the flying pink elephant has been documented over thousands of cases yet no one seems to think the flying pink elephant actually exists.

Why are people immediately certain of these things but as soon as it comes to the concept of god they halt themselves and immediately jump onto this other mode of thinking?

I say to anyone who is agnostic, they must be equally agnostic to all things mythological but I highly doubt that they actually take this position. It shows that they are not only contradictory if they do, but they dismiss their entire argument completely by not upholding it to all cases.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:26 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;170468 wrote:
I don't see it this way at all. Otherwise we should be agnostic about all things mythological. To name a few, Zeus and gremlins or my favorite, the flying pink elephant.

Now I know with absolute certainty that a majority of Christians would not accept or even given credence to the idea that Zeus might exist.

How many people say, they are unsure if gremlins exist and we should keep an open mind because they would help to explain why perfectly good machines break for no apparent reason.

Or the fact that the flying pink elephant has been documented over thousands of cases yet no one seems to think the flying pink elephant actually exists.

Why are people immediately certain of these things but as soon as it comes to the concept of god they halt themselves and immediately jump onto this other mode of thinking?

I say to anyone who is agnostic, they must be equally agnostic to all things mythological but I highly doubt that they actually take this position. It shows that they are not only contradictory if they do, but they dismiss their entire argument completely by not upholding it to all cases.


You make a good point. We all simply do believe some things, or we couldn't get out of bed. Personally, I don't believe in ghosts or an afterlife, but I have no proof. And I also know that believing in neither suits my desire for a more comprehensible world. No doubt, strange enough experiences could change my mind on these things. But I simply don't believe that this will happen.

I've often thought that action is a manifestation of what we take for true at least as much as words are. How do we live? What do we spend our time and money on? What sort of friends do we have?

If we thought there was a 50/50 chance that some God was making demands on us and threatening us with hell, we probably would spend all of our time on the issue, trying to resolve it. Because it's a big deal, all this Last Judgment stuff. So I'm saying that I don't in any living way believe in any traditional notion of God and am quite quite comfortable with that. I should add, though, that I once did believe in this traditional God. And that makes it possible for me to relate to those who do. I suspect that I would be more comfortable talking philosophy with them than the reverse.

I could be wrong.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:33 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;170468 wrote:
I don't see it this way at all. Otherwise we should be agnostic about all things mythological. To name a few, Zeus and gremlins or my favorite, the flying pink elephant.

Now I know with absolute certainty that a majority of Christians would not accept or even given credence to the idea that Zeus might exist.

How many people say, they are unsure if gremlins exist and we should keep an open mind because they would help to explain why perfectly good machines break for no apparent reason.

Or the fact that the flying pink elephant has been documented over thousands of cases yet no one seems to think the flying pink elephant actually exists.

Why are people immediately certain of these things but as soon as it comes to the concept of god they halt themselves and immediately jump onto this other mode of thinking?

I say to anyone who is agnostic, they must be equally agnostic to all things mythological but I highly doubt that they actually take this position. It shows that they are not only contradictory if they do, but they dismiss their entire argument completely by not upholding it to all cases.
Why should you dictate my beliefs? When you speak of the impossible, that does not include the possible. I will decide my opinions, no one else. If you can make sweeping statements from a dogmatic perspective, thats your choice ..not mine. Each and every subject of ethereal importance, I will consider and attempt not to be dogmatic on forming my views. To be agnostic is to admit we have not been convinced, its not a certain position its an admission.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:37 pm
@Andarius1,
The agnostic has been described as the "I'll believe it when I see it" type of person.

I think it is probably true that most, if not all, of us are agnostic by that definition.
I doubt that there is a man among us who has no doubt. I think there are a lot of liars out there, hiding the fact of their doubt, pretending to be something they are not.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all men were honest about themselves?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:48 pm
@Andarius1,
Andarius1;170052 wrote:
Because we don't know what happened before the big bang really do we ? so we have to keep all cards on the table ?


I guess so, since there was no before the BB.

---------- Post added 05-29-2010 at 04:50 PM ----------

wayne;170477 wrote:
The agnostic has been described as the "I'll believe it when I see it" type of person.

I think it is probably true that most, if not all, of us are agnostic by that definition.
I doubt that there is a man among us who has no doubt. I think there are a lot of liars out there, hiding the fact of their doubt, pretending to be something they are not.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all men were honest about themselves?


An agnostic need not say he does not believe in God. An agnostic does not know there is a God.
0 Replies
 
Huxley
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 06:57 pm
@Andarius1,
Andarius1;170052 wrote:
Because we don't know what happened before the big bang really do we ? so we have to keep all cards on the table ?


Even supposing an actual conception of God that exists prior to the Big Bang (I assume this is why you mention the Big Bang) I don't think this follows. What if one justifiably concludes otherwise? This wouldn't necessarily change the actuality of God's existence, but seeing as absolute certainty is a poor criteria for evaluating the justification of a belief, if one concludes one way or the other, and does so in a rational and justified manner, I would find their reasoning acceptable.
Andarius1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2010 12:11 am
@Huxley,
I know believing in a god is pretty much like believing in Santa or a the giant cell phone of doom but somehow I can't dismiss the god one, maybe it's because it is so engrained in society it's harder to let go of than the other mythical things.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2010 12:49 am
@xris,
xris;170473 wrote:
Why should you dictate my beliefs?


I am not dictating your beliefs. I am saying to be honest and consistent to claim to be agnostic towards the concept of god, it would dictate that you would have to be agnostic towards all things that are also myths. You can't just pick and choose, "Oh I am agnostic with the concept of god but gremlins are not real." To say such things would contradict your reasoning for being agnostic with the concept of god. The reason being? You have absolutely the same amount of evidence for god that you do for gremlins. Why insist that god is some how an exception to the rule?

xris;170473 wrote:

When you speak of the impossible, that does not include the possible. I will decide my opinions, no one else. If you can make sweeping statements from a dogmatic perspective, thats your choice ..not mine. Each and every subject of ethereal importance, I will consider and attempt not to be dogmatic on forming my views. To be agnostic is to admit we have not been convinced, its not a certain position its an admission.


All I was pointing out is that typically people contradict themselves. They say one thing but they don't in fact actually believe what they are saying. To logically justify their position in a rational way they make up arguments but as soon as you slightly alter the argument they immediately jump to a decision. This proves that they are in fact not being honest.

Why is it you can state that gremlins don't exist. Yet when it comes to the concept of god, you make the statement, that you can not know either way? That is the contradiction I am pointing out to you.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2010 07:13 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;170703 wrote:
I am not dictating your beliefs. I am saying to be honest and consistent to claim to be agnostic towards the concept of god, it would dictate that you would have to be agnostic towards all things that are also myths. You can't just pick and choose, "Oh I am agnostic with the concept of god but gremlins are not real." To say such things would contradict your reasoning for being agnostic with the concept of god. The reason being? You have absolutely the same amount of evidence for god that you do for gremlins. Why insist that god is some how an exception to the rule?



All I was pointing out is that typically people contradict themselves. They say one thing but they don't in fact actually believe what they are saying. To logically justify their position in a rational way they make up arguments but as soon as you slightly alter the argument they immediately jump to a decision. This proves that they are in fact not being honest.

Why is it you can state that gremlins don't exist. Yet when it comes to the concept of god, you make the statement, that you can not know either way? That is the contradiction I am pointing out to you.
If you take everything to the ridiculous then of course we are all atheist. Gremlins dont arise in my view nor do aliens living in my garden...BUT I do believe aliens are a possibility and a god is also a possibility. You obviously dont, so your an atheist and if you do believe in a described GOD then your theist. Why do you think you can redefine my point of view or thousands of others. The rational of an agnostic is to be non dogmatic and open minded,even if we believe its impossible to describe or understand god, if you have decided , good for you.
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