Another "God" question

@Dr Seuss,

Dr. Seuss;174273 wrote:

Those things cannot be changed and God does know what tomorrow will bring as he is the Creator.
.

Hi Dr Seuss,

Can we then assume by this that "Everything will happen tomorrow exactly as planned by God" and every day after also?

Thank you Dr Seuss, have a splendid day.

Mark...

2 Replies

@mark noble,

mark noble;174283 wrote:

Hi Dr Seuss,

Can we then assume by this that "Everything will happen tomorrow exactly as planned by God" and every day after also?

Thank you Dr Seuss, have a splendid day.

Mark...

O son of Dawn, how hasth thou fallen from the heavens?

If one punish so much, is it then god's plan to make people do folly?

0 Replies

@mark noble,

God is omniscient so he knows everything... However the future is not a thing, nor are the objects in the future a thing in fact they don't exist yet... it is just a possible outcome.

so I would assume that he does not know what is in the future... However since he knows everything in the present, he can use that knowledge to predict the future and everything which would come in the future.

Good analogy is in chess where a player thinks many moves ahead.

Whats happening here is not fate where we have no free choice whatsoever, but that of God predicting infinitely many outcomes from today onwards, and guiding the series of events so it leads toward the outcome he wants.

Just like in a chess game, we more or less choose actions which would go for or against predictions in one or many that God would make... which means that God would also to act in certain ways according to our choice.

When the bible predicts future, it could be that God is simply announcing an event which he predicts from his vast knowledge and his predictions that an event will happen... or, God is planning to make it happen.

God saying he is planning to make it happen is like me saying , "I am planning to go out to buy a soda in an hour" then going out to buy a soda in an hour. I did not know the future, I just simply did what I said I was going to do.

When you ask "Can future events written in the bible change?" you are asking "Can God's intentions or what he is plan to do in the future change?" That pretty much depends on God's whim same as how our whims change...Though, one would assume that since it is God promising such events which would unfold he would more likely then not deliver them.

God didn't create Satan to do evil, rather Satan was created, then chose to do evil. At the time God probably predicted that there was a possibility that Satan would turn evil. Then again, in the end it was Satan's Free Will from which he chose to do evil.

0 Replies

@mark noble,

mark noble;174283 wrote:

Hi Dr Seuss,

Can we then assume by this that "Everything will happen tomorrow exactly as planned by God" and every day after also?

Thank you Dr Seuss, have a splendid day.

Mark...

I feel the need to clarify something...

Lets me clear what I mean by 'Everything will happen planned by God' Im not saying God's making and causing the suffering and evil in this world. I already told you Satan is in charge now. However, what has been predicted will happen as God will make his purpose of restoring mankind to the original paradise he gave us. In that he is and will take action because thats his purpose for us and it has to happen. In that way yes he is in control of that. Just like he is in control of allowing the devil to be the god of this world but only to vindicate his name.

But by no means is he causing it.

1 Reply

@Dr Seuss,

Dr. Seuss;174244 wrote:

You are looking in the wrong place because God is not the one responsible for the suffering of mankind.

Remember he made us a paradise and what happened? Well Satan convinced Eve to defy God and know for herself what was right from wrong.

Then if you recall what happened later the key is there. Satan and God had a sort of argument in which Satan told God that humans were only faithful to him because he (God) gave them everything easily. Satan challenged God and God with his excellent and perfect wisdom knew that if he destroyed Satan there and then that he would had not give Satan the opportunity to prove that what he was saying was false and he would look guilty in front of his spiritual creations.

So God gave satan control of the actual system of things. Bad things happen because (and you can find it in the Bible) Satan is the god of the current system of things until he (God) brings the day of Judgment.

U make it as if the "mankind" is not responsible. It is men who are responsible for choosing to sin. As such, Nazis and Hitler are responsible for killing millions of Jews. Are you suggesting that Satan is to blame for Hitler and Nazi's genocide and not Hitler and Nazis who heeded to Satan's words? If so, then Hitler and Nazis are innocent and should not be punished...

Hence it is ultimately men's choice of choosing to sin such as one man choosing to rob or murder another.

For some reason, victims blame God for this when it is clearly the Robber or Murderer's fault that they were robbed or their loved ones are killed.

0 Replies

@Dr Seuss,

Dr. Seuss;174289 wrote:

I feel the need to clarify something...

Lets me clear what I mean by 'Everything will happen planned by God' Im not saying God's making and causing the suffering and evil in this world. I already told you Satan is in charge now. However, what has been predicted will happen as God will make his purpose of restoring mankind to the original paradise he gave us. In that he is and will take action because thats his purpose for us and it has to happen. In that way yes he is in control of that. Just like he is in control of allowing the devil to be the god of this world but only to vindicate his name.

But by no means is he causing it.

Hi Dr Seuss,

Isaiah 45:7. I create the good and the evil.
And NT - "ALL ACTS ARE BY HIM, FOR HIM AND THROUGH HIM". How do you interpret this?
Also - if the future is prewritten and the outcome 'WILL be' regardless what - Then there is no free will (because no matter whether I turn left or right, I cannot change it), this goes for satan too - therefore negating satan into no more than an aspect of God's nature. Even if satan does have free reign, it is granted him by God - God ALLOWS satan to do what satan does, and is therefore the perpetrator of all evil, it is, after all, sanctioned by Him, is it not?

Can a name be added to or removed from the book of the lamb? No. Therefore if you're in it - you're in it, if not, then not. Nothing satan, man or God does can change that. No satan - no free-will and no one-sided God.

Anyway I've got to sort the oven out now (got shortbread baking) so I'll catch up with you in a bit.

Thank you for this discussion - hope it's not too intense? And have a great day.

Mark...

1 Reply

@mark noble,

mark noble;174314 wrote:

Hi Dr Seuss,

Isaiah 45:7. I create the good and the evil.
And NT - "ALL ACTS ARE BY HIM, FOR HIM AND THROUGH HIM". How do you interpret this?
Also - if the future is prewritten and the outcome 'WILL be' regardless what - Then there is no free will (because no matter whether I turn left or right, I cannot change it), this goes for satan too - therefore negating satan into no more than an aspect of God's nature. Even if satan does have free reign, it is granted him by God - God ALLOWS satan to do what satan does, and is therefore the perpetrator of all evil, it is, after all, sanctioned by Him, is it not?

Can a name be added to or removed from the book of the lamb? No. Therefore if you're in it - you're in it, if not, then not. Nothing satan, man or God does can change that. No satan - no free-will and no one-sided God.

Anyway I've got to sort the oven out now (got shortbread baking) so I'll catch up with you in a bit.

Thank you for this discussion - hope it's not too intense? And have a great day.

Mark...

Of course he created good and evil, because he made everything that exists. He created the devil and he turned evil it doesnt mean God turned him evil, he created his Son Jesus he is good he never went evil, so I can see how that verse is accurate. Can you?

Everything happens through him indeed beacause without him nothing would exists. Including us and everything we see and dont. We are not being manipulated in any way by him or atheists would not exist. Witchcraft etc.

There is free will, you can chose to jump in front of a car or not, if you right now get a knife and cut yourself its not written its your free will and it wont change a thing in the whole. Probably you wont do that and its your choice.

God has allowed Satan to govern now, yes...however and you need to read this part because you have ignored it completely on my other posts, he is allowing it to vindicate his name. Sometimes in government etc. sometimes it takes to do something that will impact a lot of people and effect them in a negative way for the greater good and to prove something.

Conversation too intense? lmao. No, thanks for making me think cause I get bored easily, you have actually made me have a good time.

Ill be back I have school now. :O

1 Reply

@Dr Seuss,

Dr. Seuss;174325 wrote:

Of course he created good and evil, because he made everything that exists. He created the devil and he turned evil it doesnt mean God turned him evil, he created his Son Jesus he is good he never went evil, so I can see how that verse is accurate. Can you?

Everything happens through him indeed beacause without him nothing would exists. Including us and everything we see and dont. We are not being manipulated in any way by him or atheists would not exist. Witchcraft etc.

There is free will, you can chose to jump in front of a car or not, if you right now get a knife and cut yourself its not written its your free will and it wont change a thing in the whole. Probably you wont do that and its your choice.

God has allowed Satan to govern now, yes...however and you need to read this part because you have ignored it completely on my other posts, he is allowing it to vindicate his name. Sometimes in government etc. sometimes it takes to do something that will impact a lot of people and effect them in a negative way for the greater good and to prove something.

Conversation too intense? lmao. No, thanks for making me think cause I get bored easily, you have actually made me have a good time.

Ill be back I have school now. :O

Hi Dr Seuss,
Brilliant, I like talking to you. Are you saying that God didn't know that satan was going to turn out evil? because if He didn't He's not very omniscient, is He? And if He did - He thus created him do be so - Hence, satan is only doing (as a henchman) as prescribed - Therefore, there is no need for satan unless God is incapable of carrying out His own acts, don't you think?
If I allow my child to murder his friend - how am I vindicating my name? I am an accessory to the fact.

Why don't you capitalise in reference to God (Him), (He), for example - and why do you capitalise (Satan)?

Free-will? What free-will is there when the plot MUST turn out as MUST? No single outcome can prevail if the preceding cause is variable. Can I die before the time that God has preselected that I do so? No...So if I do slit my throat - It was predeemed that I slit my throat at that precise moment to coincide with God's requirement.

God doesn't need to prove anything, It is all about faith, not proof, isn't it? Faith is pretty pointless once God is proven, don't you think?

Anyway - my shortbread turned out nice, and you're a great conversationalist.
Hope to hear from you soon... Have a great day at school. Thank you.

Mark...

1 Reply

@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

What was the thing your professor said that got you stirring? If your logic professor sincerely said, "There's no God because oil spilled in the gulf", he shouldn't be a logic professor. In fact, he shouldn't be a professor at all.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;174358 wrote:

What was the thing your professor said that got you stirring? If your logic professor sincerely said, "There's no God because oil spilled in the gulf", he shouldn't be a logic professor. In fact, he shouldn't be a professor at all.

What's wrong with it? The premises are hidden but it's legitimate:

If god exists, he would not let oil spill in the gulf
Oil has spilled in the gulf
Therefore, god does not exist

It's a classic and devastating argument that has forced theists into the position of equivocating on the definition of "god".

1 Reply

@Wozz,

Jebediah;174367 wrote:

If god exists, he would not let oil spill in the gulf
Oil has spilled in the gulf
Therefore, god does not exist

so, your argument is that 'if God existed, nothing bad would ever happen, therefore God does not exist'?

1 Reply

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;174406 wrote:

so, your argument is that 'if God existed, nothing bad would ever happen, therefore God does not exist'?

No. The argument is as quoted.

God is supremely good and all powerful and has the ability to work around the laws of nature (he created them in fact)*. So the existence of terrible things that a good being could have and would have prevented if he existed, is proof that he does not exist.

I would go for a more striking example than the oil spill personally.

*Of course, someone will say that this is not what god is. This is what I meant by equivocating.

0 Replies

@Wozz,

But wouldn't this rule out anything bad ever happening? I mean, if He could stop the oil spill, what about earthquakes? Volcanoes? Illnesses? Why stop with the gulf oil spill?

1 Reply

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;174411 wrote:

But wouldn't this rule out anything bad ever happening? I mean, if He could stop the oil spill, what about earthquakes? Volcanoes? Illnesses? Why stop with the gulf oil spill?

I suppose it is sufficient. One needn't prove and reprove. And it isn't anything bad, just things that should have been stopped. Like the earthquake in Haiti. I think the "god moves in mysterious ways" line is next.

But I feel like I miss your point.

1 Reply

@Jebediah,

"Mysterious ways" is one standard retort, I won't deny. I've regularly recieved it, and, well... it's unsatisfactory, to me. Of course, others vary on that point.

A newer one I've come across is related to the Best of All Possible Worlds -- that if God prevented evil, then free will would not exist. God wills that Free Will exist. Therefore, God will not prevent said evil.... something to that effect. It's fairly new to me, and I haven't explored all the possible explorations of it.

1 Reply

@Wozz,

Jebediah;174413 wrote:

But I feel like I miss your point.

Your argument was 'oil spilled in gulf, God could have prevented it, and didn't therefore God is not good or is responsible for evil, which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

But it is a fact that evil, suffering, tragedy and disaster, not to mention death, diseases, dangerous creatures, and accidents, have always happened. It seems a condition of existence. So the argument that bad things happening proves that God is malevolent or negligent is not a very good argument. It doesn't really come to terms with 'the problem of evil'.

1 Reply

@jeeprs,

Huxley;174419 wrote:

"Mysterious ways" is one standard retort, I won't deny. I've regularly recieved it, and, well... it's unsatisfactory, to me. Of course, others vary on that point.

A newer one I've come across is related to the Best of All Possible Worlds -- that if God prevented evil, then free will would not exist. God wills that Free Will exist. Therefore, God will not prevent said evil.... something to that effect. It's fairly new to me, and I haven't explored all the possible explorations of it.

That is somewhat useful for human-caused evil (although God would not have allowed sociopaths and the insane people). But natural disasters aren't required for free will.

The other "best of all possible worlds" argument involves saying that god has to act within the laws of nature, but of course he doesn't.

jeeprs;174421 wrote:

Your argument was 'oil spilled in gulf, God could have prevented it, and didn't therefore God is not good or is responsible for evil, which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

But it is a fact that evil, suffering, tragedy and disaster, not to mention death, diseases, dangerous creatures, and accidents, have always happened. It seems a condition of existence. So the argument that bad things happening proves that God is malevolent or negligent is not a very good argument. It doesn't really come to terms with 'the problem of evil'.

But that was not my argument at all. I said this:

If god exists, he would not let oil spill in the gulf
Oil has spilled in the gulf
Therefore, god does not exist

And you are saying this:

God exists
If god was not malevolent or negligent he would not let oil spill in the gulf
Oil has spilled in the gulf
Therefore, god is malevolent or negligent

1 Reply

@Jebediah,

Jebediah;174425 wrote:

If god exists, he would not let oil spill in the gulf
Oil has spilled in the gulf
Therefore, god does not exist

OK then - why is this true? How does the oil spill prove God's non-existence? What is your reasoning?

2 Replies

@jeeprs,

Hi Guys,

Why do you class the oil spill as "evil", if you don't mind me asking?
Thank you, and have a great day.
Mark...

0 Replies

@Huxley,

Huxley;174419 wrote:

"Mysterious ways" is one standard retort, I won't deny. I've regularly recieved it, and, well... it's unsatisfactory, to me. Of course, others vary on that point.

A newer one I've come across is related to the Best of All Possible Worlds -- that if God prevented evil, then free will would not exist. God wills that Free Will exist. Therefore, God will not prevent said evil.... something to that effect. It's fairly new to me, and I haven't explored all the possible explorations of it.

Part of this argument is that the world is not actually evil at all. Disasters happen, but we were never promised a rose garden. Sooner or later the Earth itself will expire, and everyone you know now will be dead in 80 years or less. So, to put it politely, s**t happens.

In pre-modern times, the attitude was that this world is a 'vale of tears' and it was never expected to be anything else. So the idea was not to try and improve it, but to transcend it, or escape from it, into 'heaven' or 'nirvana'.

I think a large part of the modern anger about s**t happening is because (a) the very worst s**t that happens seems to be caused by us, which is kind of embarrasing, and (2) even if we can refrain from doing outright evil, it seems that there are always going to be disasters and suffering. It's just not a good look, is it? This is not at all like what it oughta be? Why isn't it like, you know, reality television, I mean, people get thrown off the set, but in the end there's a winner, and even the loosers don't get actually, you know, killed. I mean, I don't like it. God must suck.

0 Replies

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