Another "God" question

@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

God is the conductor, the maestro, but the musicians (all independent actualities) are not always paying attention and following the score. Sometimes they play beautiful music and sometimes just disorder, chaos, the deep and the formless void.

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@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

You can either go somewhat dualist and make God less than omnipotent OR a being who allows free will....

OR you can revise your concept of God to include what humans call evil.

One thought I have seen here and there goes something like this:
To man, some things are good and others evil. To God, all things are good.

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@Wozz,

How about a more rational explanation?

The spill in the gulf was man induced. There is no god to prevent, or protect, or even dismiss. The universe is just a chain of causes and effects. If humans didn't care about oil, there wouldn't be any danger of a spill.

1 Reply

@Wozz,

See that's a good point because his conclusion was God does not exist because he does not partake in the world events. But how do you argue anything for God? We don't know if there is a God let a lone what God is. He could come right back and say "well show me this God"

1 Reply

@Wozz,

Luther's understanding of God, religion and the Bible leaves no room for compromise. In his picture, God is indeed the author of everything, including evil, and He owes us no explanation whatever, because He is the author of the Universe, and he can choose to do whatever He likes.

If you really want to dig into it, have a look at the excellent The Theological Origins of Modernity by Michael Allen Gillespie.

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@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

Your professor's logic presupposes that God is inclined to intervene in the world to ward off evils, but why make this assumption? It is also logically possible that those evils which do occur will ultimately lead to beneficial outcomes that we cannot foresee; e.g., the slaughter of the civil war ultimately ended slavery and eventually led to full civil rights for the descendents of the freed slaves.

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@Krumple,

Krumple;169748 wrote:

How about a more rational explanation?

The spill in the gulf was man induced. There is no god to prevent, or protect, or even dismiss. The universe is just a chain of causes and effects. If humans didn't care about oil, there wouldn't be any danger of a spill.

That is true, but it is not a relevant answer, since the question is why does God permit the spill to have the bad effects it has? God could have diverted the spill so that it went into the ocean rather that toward the shore, for instance. The same is true of the Holocaust. Man created it, but it is up to God to let it be as bad or as mitigated as He likes.

---------- Post added 05-28-2010 at 12:13 AM ----------

davidm;169776 wrote:

Your professor's logic presupposes that God is inclined to intervene in the world to ward off evils, but why make this assumption? It is also logically possible that those evils which do occur will ultimately lead to beneficial outcomes that we cannot foresee; e.g., the slaughter of the civil war ultimately ended slavery and eventually led to full civil rights for the descendents of the freed slaves.

1. Because God is good, and if God were able to do so, He would intervene to ward off evils.
2. That it is logically possible that evil will have beneficial outcomes, that does not mean that they will, and clearly evil has not always had beneficial outcomes, so you are still left to account for evils that have not had beneficial outcomes.

In any case, it is not true that all evil is man-made evil. The Earthquake that devastated Haiti was not a man-made evil.

1 Reply

@Wozz,

Thanks Kennethamy. I also enjoy when religious leaders say God created us to worship him, does that not mean his motive is self-interest? That would make God have human qualities...it's like shooting yourself in the foot in the case of a religious leader saying this.

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@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about.

In the Lutheran context, you could simply reply that we can't know the mind of God - that what he allows, does or doesn't do isn't for us to question. Also, as someone else pointed out, the overall "plan" is that we have the ability to choose; and in so doing, often make mistakes or cause suffering. We'll sit in our own stew while he watches to see how we deal with it, etc.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;169819 wrote:

That is true, but it is not a relevant answer, since the question is why does God permit the spill to have the bad effects it has? God could have diverted the spill so that it went into the ocean rather that toward the shore, for instance. The same is true of the Holocaust. Man created it, but it is up to God to let it be as bad or as mitigated as He likes.

---------- Post added 05-28-2010 at 12:13 AM ----------

1. Because God is good, and if God were able to do so, He would intervene to ward off evils.

Unless God prized free will more than he deprecated evil, and was willing to put up with the latter to maximize the former.

Quote:

2. That it is logically possible that evil will have beneficial outcomes, that does not mean that they will, and clearly evil has not always had beneficial outcomes, so you are still left to account for evils that have not had beneficial outcomes.

We don't know that evil has never ultimately had beneficial outcomes that (by some standard) outweighed the initial evil. There's no way to show this.

Quote:

In any case, it is not true that all evil is man-made evil. The Earthquake that devastated Haiti was not a man-made evil.

This is the best of all possible worlds; God could not have made a better possible world, for there is a better possible world than any world you can imagine and so God had to stop somewhere.

:whistling:

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@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

Even if God existed why blame God?

For the holocaust question...
You can blame God for allowing it... or just as well blame people, namely Nazis, who chose to kill millions of people out of their free will.

Now, the questions are... If God stops every wrong choice which would be made by men, could that be called "Free Will"?... Another philosophy topic which i believe diverges from main topic

Should he only stops the "Bad" ones? Define "Bad"... Another philosophy topic which i believe diverges from the main topic... pretty sure there's more here though.

For the "spill in the gulf"...
You can blame God for allowing it... or just as well blame man's carelessness in taking care of the pipe which carries the oil. For example, bad planning, human error, simple ignorance of the surroundings, and/or planning ahead.

Even if there was a God I don't think (my opinion) God has an obligation to take care of our mistakes even if he is benevolent.

davidm;170089 wrote:

God could not have made a better possible world, for there is a better possible world than any world you can imagine

I take this to mean...
Meaning: it is impossible for God (which by general definition is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) or any being to create anything which is perfect(that which no greater can be conceived)

the words "Impossible for God" is kind of out of the spectrum of common sense. :\ Paradox @.@

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@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about.

Wozz;169768 wrote:

...his conclusion was God does not exist because he does not partake in the world events. But how do you argue anything for God? We don't know if there is a God let a lone what God is. He could come right back and say "well show me this God"

This is your logic professor? I don't have any good theological proofs, but you can always just attack his argument by pointing out any logical fallacies he may have committed in the course of his conversation. Given your summary it sounds as if he might be begging the question or denying the antecedent. Eh, just google "fallacy" and see if any of them would work. He'd probably get a kick out of it, if he has a sense of humor.

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@Wozz,

Quote:

I also enjoy when religious leaders say God created us to worship him, does that not mean his motive is self-interest? That would make God have human qualities...it's like shooting yourself in the foot in the case of a religious leader saying this.

Actually this would make self-interest a divine quality that man shares, not the other way around. What would be wrong with God being self-interested. If God creates it must be for a purpose--whatever it may be. As the only self-existing self any purpose would have to serve himself, so what is wrong with that. For too long we have been trained to think of self-interest as wrong. Since God is omnibenevolent then his purpose is good in the end and serving anything but his sel-interest would be evil.

Our version of self-interest is different because good is not defined by our nature so often our self-interested efforts are evil, but God is not affected by this weakness.

As for your Logic prof, I would ask what is there about God that leads him to believe that God must take action to stop the spill or any other evil. As God the only thing that constrains him is his own nature (logic would be part of that nature). If it is within his nature to permit these things then nothing requires him to stop them. If his nature is by definition good, then his permitting them, ultimately, must be good even though what he permits can itself be evil.

The permission and the permitted action can have different moral values. Let's say, you are going to perform an evil and it is within my power and knowledge to stop you. If I do not stop you this does not automatically make my restraint evil. I may have held back for multiple reasons, many of which might be good. It actually oversimplifies things by saying one with the knowledge and power must always stop the evil they are aware of. It is also insulting to God to say that he must do anything other than what is neccessary, such as existence and action in keeping with his nature. As a neccessary being, there are no contingent actions that God must perform. If God must act to stop man's evil always, then God's action is now contingent on man and his purposes. God is reduced to a divine traffic cop keeping bad from happening.

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@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

If no disasters ever happend, we wouldn't evolve, usually with disasters we do a greater effort to solve the problem.

After the great flood, it seems he put the rainbow as a pact between man and god as a promise never to interfeer again.

1 Reply

@Wozz,

Wozz;169673 wrote:

First off, sorry if this post is repetitive and a duplicate of one already posted.

My Professor in Logic said something to me today that had me stirring. I was raised Lutheran and although I will be the first to say I am far from a faithful Lutheran I still tend to defend my religion. My question is this: If God exists why does he let things like the oil spill in the gulf occur or the holocaust? I'm hoping someone has a witty response I can give my Professor or even just something I can converse with him about. Thanks

Hi Wozz,

Why do you and so many others see your biblical God as a one-sided coin - Have any of you read the bible? God created "Good" and "Evil", "rape, paedophilia, murder, torture, pain, anguish, eternal torment, hell", etc, etc, etc.
God is the Author of ALL THINGS, there are no other AUTHORS.
"By HIm, For Him and Through Him...All Things!"

Read Isaiah 45:7 to start with, that should head you in the right direction.

Hope this helps you out, Wozz, and have a fantastic evrything, always.

Mark...

2 Replies

@mark noble,

mark noble;173432 wrote:

Hi Wozz,

Why do you and so many others see your biblical God as a one-sided coin - Have any of you read the bible? God created "Good" and "Evil", "rape, paedophilia, murder, torture, pain, anguish, eternal torment, hell", etc, etc, etc.
God is the Author of ALL THINGS, there are no other AUTHORS.
"By HIm, For Him and Through Him...All Things!"

Read Isaiah 45:7 to start with, that should head you in the right direction.

Hope this helps you out, Wozz, and have a fantastic evrything, always.

Mark...

Yeah, I'm gonna give cluckk a thumbs-up for thinking through some of the more common objections. Also, the whole "God created evil" bit only holds if evil is a THING (i.e. a "creation") that was created. Problem is, quite a few Christian theologians don't think that evil IS a thing. For a quick exposition of the "evil isn't a thing" position, see here: Stand to Reason: A Good Reason for Evil
Furthermore, I suggest we keep Bible verses out of the debate for the most part, if only to keep the discussion from spiraling into a debate about Biblical hermeneutics v. philosophy of religion.

Edit: The "evil isn't a thing" position actually seems to work out with the Isaiah verse, because the verse mentions "light" and "darkness," which operates on the same principle ("darkness" isn't really a thing in itself, but merely the absence of light).

1 Reply

@Mister Turnip,

Mister Turnip;173454 wrote:

Yeah, I'm gonna give cluckk a thumbs-up for thinking through some of the more common objections. Also, the whole "God created evil" bit only holds if evil is a THING (i.e. a "creation") that was created. Problem is, quite a few Christian theologians don't think that evil IS a thing. For a quick exposition of the "evil isn't a thing" position, see here: Stand to Reason: A Good Reason for Evil
Furthermore, I suggest we keep Bible verses out of the debate for the most part, if only to keep the discussion from spiraling into a debate about Biblical hermeneutics v. philosophy of religion.

Edit: The "evil isn't a thing" position actually seems to work out with the Isaiah verse, because the verse mentions "light" and "darkness," which operates on the same principle ("darkness" isn't really a thing in itself, but merely the absence of light).

Hi Mr Turnip,

If "evil" isn't a thing, neither is "Good" a thing. I personally agree - They are opinions derived from an observers point of view on a given event.
But, the OP is asking "If God is?". Making it dificult to remove scripture from the answer.
And if "Darkness" isn't a thing, neither is "light". Is not "light" merely the absence of "darkness"?

If I apply what I label "God" to this thread, then the oil spill, or rather, negative effects of, is an occurence, no more - no less.

Anyway, thank you for commenting, and have a brilliant day.

Mark...

2 Replies

@mark noble,

mark noble;173487 wrote:

Hi Mr Turnip,

If "evil" isn't a thing, neither is "Good" a thing. I personally agree - They are opinions derived from an observers point of view on a given event.
But, the OP is asking "If God is?". Making it dificult to remove scripture from the answer.
And if "Darkness" isn't a thing, neither is "light". Is not "light" merely the absence of "darkness"?

If I apply what I label "God" to this thread, then the oil spill, or rather, negative effects of, is an occurence, no more - no less.

Anyway, thank you for commenting, and have a brilliant day.

Mark...

I see scripture as useful when doing definition or speaking to those who hold a high view of scripture--like my fellow Christians. If I tell an atheist: "The Bible says so," I have wasted my breath and efforts, making myself appear mindless. When working with those who do not respect scripture I will seldom use scripture, forcing me to work harder to make my point. In this setting scripture is useful when discussing such things as definitions, like the biblical, Jewish or Christian definition of God. In the same way we can use the Quran for looking at the Muslim view of God or the Bhagvad Gita in the Hindu view of God.

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@mark noble,

mark noble;173487 wrote:

Hi Mr Turnip,

If "evil" isn't a thing, neither is "Good" a thing. I personally agree - They are opinions derived from an observers point of view on a given event.
But, the OP is asking "If God is?". Making it dificult to remove scripture from the answer.
And if "Darkness" isn't a thing, neither is "light". Is not "light" merely the absence of "darkness"?

If I apply what I label "God" to this thread, then the oil spill, or rather, negative effects of, is an occurence, no more - no less.

Anyway, thank you for commenting, and have a brilliant day.

Mark...

Sorry, but I'm not buying that bit about light being the absence of darkness. I guess that technically it's true, as in not-not-A equaling A. But darkness can only be defined as the absence of light, whereas light has unique properties in and of itself independent of darkness. The same goes for good and evil.

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