What do numerals conjure in the mind?

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For example, if you read '34,' you don't imagine 34 things. What do you imagine? What does this 'code' do?

In some ways it's meaningless and we wouldn't imagine much at all but at the same time it indicates to us what it doesn't mean, as well.

Similarly, if we were to expand it into '34 + 5 = 39,' what would this conjure in the mind? We'd understand this simple equation perfectly yet the process is too subtle to notice the characteristics of these specifically chosen numbers between any other.

I'm hoping to hear of your opinions and then expand it into language/words. I'm trying to find the consistency between every single word. I was under the impression they conjured some sort of unique 'image' in the mind but a) this can't be true due to abstract words (such as 'using,' 'desire' etc.) and b) I'm not consciously aware of this happening (ie. if you say 'cat,' you won't necessarily imagine it but you will acknowledge it, just like with the numeral 34).

Thank you. I hope I haven't explained too badly. Surprised

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@Leafish,

Leafish;156492 wrote:

For example, if you read '34,' you don't imagine 34 things. What do you imagine? What does this 'code' do?

In some ways it's meaningless and we wouldn't imagine much at all but at the same time it indicates to us what it doesn't mean, as well.

Similarly, if we were to expand it into '34 + 5 = 39,' what would this conjure in the mind? We'd understand this simple equation perfectly yet the process is too subtle to notice the characteristics of these specifically chosen numbers between any other.

I'm hoping to hear of your opinions and then expand it into language/words. I'm trying to find the consistency between every single word. I was under the impression they conjured some sort of unique 'image' in the mind but a) this can't be true due to abstract words (such as 'using,' 'desire' etc.) and b) I'm not consciously aware of this happening (ie. if you say 'cat,' you won't necessarily imagine it but you will acknowledge it, just like with the numeral 34).

Thank you. I hope I haven't explained too badly.

I think we need a context. But not everything I think about evokes a picture in my head. The statement that "although" is a conjunction brings up no picture in my head. Does it in yours? Why would anyone think that all words (or even most words) evoke images in speakers or hearers? I suppose because they think that meanings are objects of some kind. But, of course, they are not. Even the meaning of the word "elephant" is not an elephant. An elephant is the referent of the word, "elephant". Meaning and reference are very different. That is why a word like "unicorn" can have a meaning, even if there are no unicorns. Furthermore, even if an image of a unicorn is evoked by the word, it doesn't follow that unicorns are the meaning of "unicorn". For the image of a unicorn is not a unicorn.

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@Leafish,

Leafish;156492 wrote:

For example, if you read '34,' you don't imagine 34 things. What do you imagine? What does this 'code' do?

I suppose I read a numeral in something like the same way I read an English sentence: its meaning is given by its syntax and the meanings of the 'words' (digits) of which it is composed.

The 'language' of decimal numerals is far simpler than English, but it is equally infinite, and its infinitely many meanings aren't all stored separately in the mind, just as we don't store in advance the meanings of all possible English sentences.

The meaning of a digit is given by its location in the sequence 0123456789, and the meaning of a numeral nd, where n is a numeral and d is a digit, is n*x + d, where x denotes the number ten.

So we understand numerals if we understand natural numbers (including zero), digits, addition, and multiplication. There are several competing ways of understanding these notions, and I'm not venturing any such understanding, only observing that any such understanding suffices to give a unique interpretation to all decimal numerals.

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@Leafish,

Numerals are signs representing a number on units...One is a concept upon with all numerals are based.. So thirty four is thirty four ones..

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@Fido,

Fido;156630 wrote:

Numerals are signs representing a number on units...One is a concept upon with all numerals are based.. So thirty four is thirty four ones..

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that 34 is 68 halves. In fact, I suppose there are at least 34 ways of looking at it.

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@Leafish,

Leafish;156492 wrote:

For example, if you read '34,' you don't imagine 34 things. What do you imagine? What does this 'code' do?

In some ways it's meaningless and we wouldn't imagine much at all but at the same time it indicates to us what it doesn't mean, as well.

Similarly, if we were to expand it into '34 + 5 = 39,' what would this conjure in the mind? We'd understand this simple equation perfectly yet the process is too subtle to notice the characteristics of these specifically chosen numbers between any other.

I really don't imagine anything other than 34. I don't imagine 34 things. Just a big floating 34 in my mind. Or a 3 and a 4 floating next to each other. They are sometimes green sometimes yellow sometimes light blue various colors in chalky pastel.

34 + 5 = 39 doesn't really conjure up any new color images but just the simple black in white ones on the screen but I check the math in my head. Sadly I do this in black in white. There is a sort of animation that goes on though. I zoom in on 34 then zoom in on 5 and then just the 4 and the 5 sort of stand out in relief and I recognize 4 + 5 as "nine". Interesting - This I occurs to me more as a voice than as a visual I don't see a number 9 but rather I hear "nine" For a split second I see and hear (not just hear this time) the number 30 and then 39. But I don't know if I always see this going on or only when I am trying to think about what I am seeing. I think the visuals slow me down a bit actually. The voice that said "nine" was much more immediate than the any of the visuals involved. I think it would be nice if the answer to equations like 34 + 5 occurred to me as that immediate voice of certainty rather than the little motion picture I just described and if I think about it and drill myself on it for a while I think it would happen like that.

Hope that helps. It's probably a little different for everyone.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy;156635 wrote:

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that 34 is 68 halves. In fact, I suppose there are at least 34 ways of looking at it.

If as Aristotle said, that all numbers are in proportion to one, then, to say 34 is 64 halfs is needlessly complicated, since 1/2 is in proportion to one as well... One, the monad is the concept, the identity upon which all numbers as signs get their meaning, and what are we counting but identities, since we know whether we are talking of dogs, or humans, or stars, that these identities are not equal of themselves, but only in gross are they equal, again, as identities.

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@Leafish,

Hi guys.

Thank you so much for the responses. They've really helped me out.

Cheers.

0 Replies

@Leafish,

Leafish;156492 wrote:

For example, if you read '34,' you don't imagine 34 things. What do you imagine? What does this 'code' do?

In some ways it's meaningless and we wouldn't imagine much at all but at the same time it indicates to us what it doesn't mean, as well.

Similarly, if we were to expand it into '34 + 5 = 39,' what would this conjure in the mind? We'd understand this simple equation perfectly yet the process is too subtle to notice the characteristics of these specifically chosen numbers between any other.

I'm hoping to hear of your opinions and then expand it into language/words. I'm trying to find the consistency between every single word. I was under the impression they conjured some sort of unique 'image' in the mind but a) this can't be true due to abstract words (such as 'using,' 'desire' etc.) and b) I'm not consciously aware of this happening (ie. if you say 'cat,' you won't necessarily imagine it but you will acknowledge it, just like with the numeral 34).

As you explain it, Imo it's purely subjective and individualistic how we each interpet it, as it doesn't represent any relation to anything other being a numerical number.

If doesn't have:
- history
- feelings
- emotions
- religion
..etc

If you on the other hand said ..1 or 666, then it would have historical associasion, and many would have strong feelings against it and provoke negative emotions ..etc.

1 often are associated with being best, the only one ..etc.

1 Reply

@HexHammer,

HexHammer;159333 wrote:

As you explain it, Imo it's purely subjective and individualistic how we each interpet it, as it doesn't represent any relation to anything other being a numerical number.

If doesn't have:
- history
- feelings
- emotions
- religion
..etc

If you on the other hand said ..1 or 666, then it would have historical associasion, and many would have strong feelings against it and provoke negative emotions ..etc.

1 often are associated with being best, the only one ..etc.

The thing is, that pure abstractions as numbers are can take on the character of the thing themselves; but with moral forms such as liberty or justice or equality, the word, the form, the concept can never stand without the thing in question...We ask what is liberty and we can only define it by an example of the thing...When you say One, no one has to say one of what...

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@Fido,

Fido;156630 wrote:

Numerals are signs representing a number on units...One is a concept upon with all numerals are based.. So thirty four is thirty four ones..

Yes, One is the root. There is really only one number.

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 01:06 PM ----------

Fido;156725 wrote:

If as Aristotle said, that all numbers are in proportion to one, then, to say 34 is 64 halfs is needlessly complicated, since 1/2 is in proportion to one as well... One, the monad is the concept, the identity upon which all numbers as signs get their meaning, and what are we counting but identities, since we know whether we are talking of dogs, or humans, or stars, that these identities are not equal of themselves, but only in gross are they equal, again, as identities.

This is also true, in my opinion, and too little noticed. Smile

1 Reply

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;173429 wrote:

There is really only one number.

Then let's hope that that number isn't zero, or else we're in real trouble! Smile

2 Replies

@Twirlip,

69 is a significant number but 34 is just one more than 33, that guides me to 69. Sex is the driving force behind our mindless reasoning and numbers are no exception.

0 Replies

@Twirlip,

Twirlip;173442 wrote:

Then let's hope that that number isn't zero, or else we're in real trouble!

I may have some bad news for you (suggesting that is might be 0).......but seriously, I think it's one. Of course zero is still a unity, but it's an empty unity. So it's closer to what I consider the proto-concept than 1 is. With zero we are dealing almost but not quite with the absolute concept. Smile

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 01:48 PM ----------

xris;173444 wrote:

69 is a significant number but 34 is just one more than 33, that guides me to 69. Sex is the driving force behind our mindless reasoning and numbers are no exception.

I can't go with you that far, even if desire is as fundamental as quantity.

1 Reply

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;173445 wrote:

I may have some bad news for you (suggesting that is might be 0).......but seriously, I think it's one. Of course zero is still a unity, but it's an empty unity. So it's closer to what I consider the proto-concept than 1 is. With zero we are dealing almost but not quite with the absolute concept.

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 01:48 PM ----------

I can't go with you that far, even if desire is as fundamental as quantity.

So what numbers drive your imagination ? Freud never doubted our need to exert our sexuality into the most mundane of experiences.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;173450 wrote:

So what numbers drive your imagination ? Freud never doubted our need to exert our sexuality into the most mundane of experiences.

I like Freud, and numbers do indeed turn me on. And we cannot Freud to Plato and Schopenhauer. What drives the world is Wille, Lust, Libido, Love, Desire. I think Beauty is directly connected with these. What we desire or love is beautiful. Women, personal glory, mathematical beauty, a sculpture (I love the quasi-eternity of stone,) and if one is lucky one can experience the whole world as a "miracle" of beauty. Norman O. Browne applied Freud's polymorphous perversion to the mystic experience. Now for me the mystic experience is nothing but sensation and emotion taken to the limits. Have you read Blake? He anticipated Freud and Wittgenstein. By the way, Freud and Jung were quite important to my "intellectual" development. I studied the crap outta psychology before I was sucked into philosophy, and then mathematics. It's all one. They all connect. Do you know Jung? He's not a mystic. He just has balls.

The numbers that get me are the simplest and the most complicated. 1, 0, i, e, pi, phi, gamma. My avatar is an informal way to write e. Technically one is supposed to use the limit notation, but it means the same damn thing. Infinity is not really a number but a sort of algorithm. Bascially, the higher the number you plug in, the closer you get to the true value of e. But since there is no highest number, the true value of e is never determined. Fortunately, because e is an extremely important number, we quickly get close enough for all practical purposes. But yes, mathematics is erotic, extreme erotic if one really sees it. Here are two links. The first is why e is important. The second is the most beautiful identity in math. It links all the most important numbers in one stone-lovely statement of relationship. And this is an eternal relationship between the numbers most important to humanity, and also the most beautiful. Smile

e (mathematical constant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Euler's identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1 Reply

@Reconstructo,

My brain is not wired for numbers even though I can understand the poetry it contains. Yes life is mathematics, it describes its complexity and has a certain beauty when understood . My daughter has acquired a great understanding of it , she loves the subject. Sorry to say Blake is not on my reading list, except briefly in my youth. I knew he gave birth to the future romantics and was not appreciated fully in his lifetime.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;173515 wrote:

My brain is not wired for numbers even though I can understand the poetry it contains. Yes life is mathematics, it describes its complexity and has a certain beauty when understood . My daughter has acquired a great understanding of it , she loves the subject. Sorry to say Blake is not on my reading list, except briefly in my youth. I knew he gave birth to the future romantics and was not appreciated fully in his lifetime.

I think we are all wired for numbers. My wife hates math. It drives her crazy when I rave about it. I still haven't converted her. Almost everyone I meet is unpleasantly surprised when I say I am obsessed with it. I tell them it's perfect sculpture, but they don't believe me. I don't use it. Except the basics we all use. So there's no homework, no duty involved. I also study/contemplate meta-mathematics. Supposedly metamath and calculus are harder than algebra, but it's not that simple. There are basic concepts involved which are exciting and approachable. It's not about the big problems, in my opinion, but about the basic problems, or the essential concepts. It's all about the pure crystalline thought involved. It's like a stone sculpture, except that calculus is the t-1000 from Terminator 2. Smile

2 Replies

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;173519 wrote:

I think we are all wired for numbers. My wife hates math. It drives her crazy when I rave about it. I still haven't converted her. Almost everyone I meet is unpleasantly surprised when I say I am obsessed with it. I tell them it's perfect sculpture, but they don't believe me. I don't use it. Except the basics we all use. So there's no homework, no duty involved. I also study/contemplate meta-mathematics. Supposedly metamath and calculus are harder than algebra, but it's not that simple. There are basic concepts involved which are exciting and approachable. It's not about the big problems, in my opinion, but about the basic problems, or the essential concepts. It's all about the pure crystalline thought involved. It's like a stone sculpture, except that calculus is the t-1000 from Terminator 2.

If i were you recon, I would be aware of the words you use in regard to your wife... My wife hates... Drives her crazy... Before my wife left me she gave me plenty of signs about the things I did which drove her nuts, which is not to say it was not mutual..And she did so for years.. But two is a pretty nice number when it comes to people... And you may not want to be sitting around some day in an empty house asking: why'ed she leave me??? Think about it...

Numbers have a specific function, and that is the conception/abstraction of physical reality... Number is a true concept...Yet, we live in the moral world, and I may add, that is where we love...

2 Replies

@Fido,

Yes, most are wired for maths, some are overstimulated and some are understimulated, therefor you shouldn't push math upon those who does not desire math.

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What do numerals conjure in the mind?

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