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The seat of consciousness

 
 
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:39 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;161417 wrote:
Well, thank you for your OPINION. But you are so far off base that it is almost worthless to respond. You clearly have merely stumbled upon a couple articles and then pasted them thinking they confirm your perspective. I suggest you actually read what you post before you post it.

Please stop wasting everyones time with your pseudoscientific OPINIONs.

You embarrass yourself and waste my time.


No, I required of you something quite simple; that you support your assertions with at least two articles from well respected academics who study the subject as you are making fairly forceful claims. Do you consider that very basic request to be an unfair demand?

As you yourself claim, most people are unfamiliar with neurocardiology; could you at the very least establish your position for us ignoramuses?
trismegisto
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:43 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;161499 wrote:
No, I required of you something quite simple; that you support your assertions with at least two articles from well respected academics who study the subject as you are making fairly forceful claims. Do you consider that very basic request to be an unfair demand?

As you yourself claim, most people are unfamiliar with neurocardiology; could you at the very least establish your position for us ignoramuses?



When you make a cogent argument and actually read your own links I might consider what you have to say. But so far I find you lacking the understanding to even warrant an attempt.

Read through the thread again and discover your own errors, I have no interest in teaching you interpersonal communication
0 Replies
 
arifjinha
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 09:04 am
I am conscious of an argument taking place here. So where is the awareness of that argument - in your hearts, your brains, my heart, my brain?

If we see a star, and nowadays because we have learned something about it we say, 'that star is very far away and therefore what we are seeing is the past'. So, when we see that star, where is our consciousness and in fact when is it?

We are seeing the past all the time (usually not very far away), and with the star we are seeing ancient history, except for the fact that the light that we are seeing has traveled to us and so it is here, and now. If we had not learned about it, we might say that 'we are seeing that star as it exists now', and in a way that is not incorrect if we imagine that the light that comes from a star is the star. Thus, the star is here and now.

The interesting question is when we try to understand the history of consciousness, because if there is a time before consciousness in which consciousness was created, in that time there would be no one to judge what a long distance, or a long time would be. There is even a great degree of variability in conscious beings in the experience of the lengthiness of time. To a being with a very long psychological moment, time passes quickly. Where/when there are no psychological moments, does time pass at all? What does it pass? Who does it pass? Does consciousness mark the beginning of time, rather than it being traced back to the start of the physical universe?

Consciousness marks the beginning of time but as it emerges, it can look backwards in time to what has happened. Only in consciousness is there ontological tension between what happened already and what is happening.

IMHO, consciousness is inseparable from reality. You cannot have a universe without consciousness and if you did, it wouldn't matter. It would be over before it started, because everything would have happened without anyone noticing, hundreds of billions of years of nothing. Or it would be over until it was discovered, but if it was discovered, that would be proof of consciousness and the emergence of consciousness would mark the beginning of time that would be able to observe a past from that point.

Consciousness cannot be talked about in terms of where it is in the end. It is not that it isn't physically-based, it is both affected and affects matter and energy. But there is no seat for it, it is the seat. Going back to the question of when and where, consciousness could be defined as the reference point for real space-time and is always in the middle of it. So it is as if to ask, where is the reference point to real space-time located? In the brain, in the heart? Or everywhere it is?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 01:31 pm
The idea that consciousness arises from something other than the biological electrochemical blob in our skull is a continuous debate. It has been claimed by science that it is an inevitable result of biological activity associated with the complexities of our brain. We must consider, is it a step of evolution or a fact of human existence? Did we always have this certain human consciousness or did it develop from animal consciousness? We ask did language become a necessity of our consciousness? Did we desire to communicate our humanity? did it exist before we could communicate? What structure in our brain distinguishes us from our animal cousins? Where does it linger this human ability?

Its not strange our brain transmits a frequency similar to our animal cousins but its very strange that it relates to nature, it vibrates at the same frequency as our mother earth, has evolution been dancing to the beat of the earth? Does our consciousness come from a common source are we all children of a frequency that describes our evolution. Are we programmed? Am I mad? look at that frequency and see how it permeates the universe?
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 08:17 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:

The idea that consciousness arises from something other than the biological electrochemical blob in our skull is a continuous debate.


Only, and let me repeat this to try to see if it can be put into long-term memory more properly, ONLY because some wish not to, or have a certain degree of acuity of aptitude needed to, carefully examine all aspects of the details and rationale of methodological concerns which are firmly supported by the greater average of the best evidence in totality. In 'pedestrian' terms: any debate on whether the state of having consciousness arises from something other than biological nature, only remains because some remain ignorant of, or in seclusion from, or cannot physically cognize the facts of the matter.

xris wrote:

We must consider, is it a step of evolution or a fact of human existence?

It is a level of process arrived at through the process of change across and within species development. It is a pure, and 100% sure fact, that humans are new to the planet earth, and were not suddenly created on the scene by some warrior deity of old.

xris wrote:

Did we always have this certain human consciousness or did it develop from animal consciousness?

This is answered above, but I will reiterate: At the same time that H. sapiens (that is the human, as easily defined) were enjoying consciousness, our fellow H. neandertahlensis, and a bit earlier on, somewhat likely, our fellow H. heidelbergensis (and, according to a newly reviewed find and study one more of our Homo genus [but I can't recall which other one, at the moment...the paper is at home]) were ALSO enjoying consciousness. From digs, studies, and careful consideration over a large set of data, is most clear that some of the even earlier hominids, such as H. eragster, H. habilis, H. rudolfensis, and H. erectus, to name the bulk [but not all] enjoyed consciusness also. This is so close to fact, xris, that only ignorance (or else) would deny it as being a true fact of nature.

It has clearly been demonstrated that other non-human primates enjoy consciousness (though, in a more evidence-based conclusion, in a slightly different sesnsory arrangement, in many cases...I emphasize, SLIGHTLY). Additionally, while there are certain philosophical arguments which can be made, the more pragmatic approach of philosophical argumentation will tell us that there is no definite, nor sharp, boundry between human and animal; and thus we only have the one animal kingdom which goes from simplicity up to complexity (meaning the H. genus...and not only H. sapiens, you see).

Therefore the answer to this question is that consciousness--which is due to the physical process we term biological in nature--has been steadily developing on the planet Earth for some hundreds of millions of years at least.


xris wrote:
We ask did language become a necessity of our consciousness?

No. The consciousness that is enjoyed by the modern H. sapiens has evidently (though it is not absolutely discerned ...but still to be rated at around 80% surety) been bolistered by language, but consciousness (as especially in core consciousness, phenomenal consciousness, and sensory cognitive consciousness ...and even the language/number base left brain areas of consciousness projection...were in place before H. sapiens came on the scene.

xris wrote:
What structure in our brain distinguishes us from our animal cousins? Where does it linger this human ability?

The prefrontal cortex, and a few internal and sub cortical regions which have become larger. Also, this is due to genes which 'lead' or 'coax' that development which can be seen to have been 'protected' from certain transcription factors...which has helped. The biggie, however, is most clearly the prefrontal cortex, and especially the anterior portion and its connectivity.

The rest of that post is based on a misunderstanding, more likely created by some who put a spin on the data...and even then they, have not seemingly been careful enough with the handling of all the various datum.

xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 09:12 am
@KaseiJin,
So what you claim, is that we have developed consciousness, it was a gift of evolution, is that your claim? Now are you sure language came before consciousness or was it result of? I'm not doubting animals are conscious but not in any way like the human ability. I think sometimes you confuse consciousness with the ability to reason. Our consciousness has superficial actions but the real ability of our conscious ability goes way beyond what could be described as the ability to be self aware or to reason on survival benefits. If you consider human consciousness is the secret we strive to understand, you must be certain of its location. To compare it to our nearest cousins and say the only difference is that our prefrontal cortex is slightly larger, I must therefor assume you believe it to be located there? is that correct? Our conscious ability was inevitable , evolution can not stop its resulting and therefor we must understand how and why not just examine it as if it was a freak of nature. Now please dont start by claiming I need a creator , I dont but I will not avoid asking any question.

I do believe the constant standard frequency of the brain is identical to the Earths EM frequency. If you disagree I would like to know why and not just dismiss my claim as spin.
0 Replies
 
Sentience
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 02:28 pm
@xris,
You feel you entire body, but you do so through your nervous system which is directly wired to your brain. Saying that your conscious has it's seat in the brain does not mean you feel nothing but your brain, in the same way that a king's kingdom is not limited to his throne.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 02:31 pm
@Sentience,
I dont think I said that did I? the argument is, can we be certain consciousness is located in the brain or the brain allows consciousness to be expressed.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2010 03:46 pm
@xris,
Are we keeping in mind that Consciousness (note the Capitalized "C") contains both conscious language based awareness and unconscious image-based (un)awareness?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 11:08 am
@JLNobody,
I just came across the distinction between thinking or calculating mind and experiencing mind. Useful I'm sure.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 03:28 pm
Where is the information in a computer?
The bits and bytes are stored electronically on the hard drive, you cannot access it directly. The information has to be assembled into the computers RAM before it can be processed. And the processing happens in the CPU itself. But none of that makes much sense to us. This text you are now reading isn't intelligible to us until it has been decoded into binary code by my computer, and reassembled to words by yours, and the place where we can interface with the information is the computer screen.

It's a crude analogy, but it does the job. There is no single organ in our bodies that can be said to be the seat of consciousness. It may not even be within our bodies. We may be just linked to it via some sort of wireless system. Even computers that are linked in wireless systems have their own specific identities.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2011 10:28 pm
@Cyracuz,
Inspired by your analogy I ask: Could it be that the problem of the locus of consciousness applies more to phenomenological mind (experience per se) than to computational mind, the calculating functions? I tend to think that computational mind is more like a CPU entity wherein is located its own type of consciousness, whereas the seat of aesthetic experience is extra-local. But this I know I don't know. Where's Fresco when we need him?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 01:29 am
@JLNobody,
I do not really feel qualified to give an answer to this, only my considerations. But I am usually wary of categorizations of our "different minds" as I feel that these distinctions are counterproductive to learning, creating and understanding. Thinking in terms of no mind rather than many minds is far preferable in terms of achieving perfect action. But I may be dodging you question...
0 Replies
 
voiceindarkness
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2011 08:12 pm
Consider one consciousness of reality, shared by all, but our mind distinguishes our individualality.
Our nervous system is an extension of our mind into reality, so we can experience the illusion of space and time, as we contemplate the reality of it.
0 Replies
 
voiceindarkness
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2011 04:59 pm
@trismegisto,
Here are scripture references concerning the heart,

Issues of life are out of Pr 4:23
God
Tries. 1Ch 29:17; Jer 12:3
Knows. Ps 44:21; Jer 20:12
Searched. 1Ch 28:9; Jer 17:10
Understands the thoughts of. 1Ch 28:9; Ps 139:2
Ponders. Pr 21:2; 24:12
Influences. 1Sa 10:26; Ezr 6:22; 7:27; Pr 21:1; Jer 20:9
Creates a new. Ps 51:10; Eze 36:26
Prepares. 1Ch 29:18; Pr 16:1
Opens. Ac 16:14
Enlightens. 2Co 4:6; Eph 1:18
Strengthens. Ps 27:14
Establishes. Ps 112:8; 1Th 3:13
Should be
Prepared to God. 1Sa 7:3
Given to God. Pr 23:26
Perfect with God. 1Ki 8:61
Applied to wisdom. Ps 90:12; Pr 2:2
Guided in the right. Pr 23:19
Purified. Jas 4:8
Single. Eph 6:5; Col 3:22
Tender. Eph 4:32
Kept with diligence. Pr 4:23
We should
Believe with. Ac 8:37; Ro 10:10
Serve God with all. De 11:13
Keep God's statutes with all. De 26:16
Walk before God with all. 1Ki 2:4
Trust in God with all. Pr 3:5
Love God with all. Mt 22:37
Return to God with all. De 30:2
Do the will of God from. Eph 6:6
Sanctify God in. 1Pe 3:15
Love one another with a pure. 1Pe 1:22
No man can cleanse Pr 20:9
Faith, the means of purifying Ac 15:9
Renewal of, promised under the gospel Eze 11:19; 36:26; Heb 3:10
When broken and contrite, not despised by God Ps 51:17
The pure in, shall see God Mt 5:8
Pray that it may be
Cleansed. Ps 51:10
Inclined to God's testimonies. Ps 119:36
United to fear God. Ps 86:11
Directed into the love of God. 2Th 3:5
Harden not, against God Ps 95:8; Heb 4:7
Harden not against the poor De 15:7
Regard not iniquity in Ps 66:18
Take heed lest it to be deceived De 11:16
Know the plague of 1Ki 8:38
He that trusts in, is a fool Pr 28:26
0 Replies
 
 

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