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realist, anti realist. Do science tell us about the world?

 
 
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 07:01 pm
The realist/ anti realist debate is here:
http://www.units.muohio.edu/eduleadership/faculty/quantz/Courses/Beebee3.pdf



Regarding the anti realist response
Quote:
An anti-realist response
The no-miracles argument basically says that the only sensible explanation of the
predictive success of scientific theories is that what those theories say about the
unobservable entities which give rise to the predicted phenomena is true. But Bas van
Fraassen, the inventor of constructive empiricism, has another explanation ...
... science is a biological phenomenon, an activity by one kind of organism
which facilitates its interaction with the environment. And this makes me
think that a very different kind of scientific explanation is required.

I can best make the point by contrasting two accounts of the mouse who
runs from its enemy, the cat. St. Augustine ... provided an intentional
explanation: the mouse perceives that the cat is its enemy, hence the mouse
runs. What is postulated here is the 'adequacy' of the mouse's thought to the
order of nature: the relation of enmity is correctly reflected in his mind. But
the Darwinist says: Do not ask why the mouse runs from its enemy. Species
which did not cope with their natural enemies no longer exist. That is why
there are only ones who do.
In just the same way, I claim that the success of current scientific theories
is no miracle ... For any scientific theory is born into a life of fierce
competition, a jungle red in tooth and claw. Only the successful theories
survive - the ones which in fact latched on to actual [observable] regularities
in nature. (The Scientific Image, pp. 39-40)


more regarding this http://www.votsis.org/PDF/The_Scientific_Realism_Debate.pdf
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Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 09:36 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
The mouse does not run from its enemy the cat, but runs from danger, and runs from hunger and from many other causes that it cannot conceive of but reacts to...Science has a certain relationship to a form of reality, which is physical reality... It conceives of the physical world by numbers, and through principals of logic... But it does no good to describe this activity as a phenonon itself for its obejct is the understanding of phenomena...The characterization you present is entirely false...Religion was once a form of science, and did what science did... But now science works apart from a spiritual explanation of reality... What you see here is a change of forms... All human progress has involved a change of forms, and not form is as open too change as science... Science is a place where no fact is accepted but as theory... If it works it works... If only we were so open to change in our social forms we might be happy...
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 11:25 pm
@Fido,
How about some actual "analysis"?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 04:35 am
@TuringEquivalent,
From that paper provided
Quote:
Thus they [scientists] speak as if there are unobservable entities with causal powers. But when they do this, what they're really doing is simply saying something about how their theory or "model" fits together - and not saying anything about how (unobservable) reality fits together.
.

This is rather similar to the instrumentalist view, is it not? What we see are dials indicating various measurements - we are not seeing 'something that causes the dials to move', or if we are, it is impossible to surmise what that 'something' is.

I think the realist view has been under threat from quantum mechanics from the outset. The question as to whether subatomic particles exist is still contentious. For example electrons can be seen as waves in some contexts, and particles in others. Even when they are understood as particles, they are understood to be completely indistinguishable one from another. This lead Richard Feynmann to consider whether there is really only one electron in the Universe.

Bernard D'espagnet, who won the Templeton Prize in 2009, believes that

Quote:
quantum physics confirms something that many philosophers have suspected for centuries. In short, human beings don't actually know the cosmos as it is in itself: it is, as d'Espagnat has called it, a 'veiled reality'. Rather, we only know the world as it comes to us. He has said that observing the world is rather like looking at a rainbow: it looks real, though we know the way it appears to us depends entirely on our location and perceptions.

Immanuel Kant, the great Enlightenment philosopher, formulated a similar suggestion. He argued that we can only get to grips with the world of phenomena, and that the world of noumena - things as they are in themselves - remain permanently beyond our reach. Where d'Espagnat differs from Kant is that he doesn't doubt that the world beyond us really exists. Rather, it's 'just' a mystery to us. Hence he can be called a 'transcendental realist', rather than Kant, who is known as a 'transcendental idealist'. So, d'Espagnat's is not a 'brain in a vat' scenario. When d'Espagnat kicks a stone, and feels the pain, he concludes that something real is resisting the forward motion of his boot. There is a ground of things but it lies beyond our concepts. Quantum physics reminds us of this, and perhaps provides us with a sidelong glimpse of it.
Source
LoungeHead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 09:21 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent,

If the handout is any indication of the course, I think non-realist positions are being a little misrepresented. The undergraduate Philosophy of Science course I took had the same problem.

The misrepresentation largely derives from lack of distinction being made about the role of language in relation to the various positions. For example:
Quote:
Realism: We have very good reason to believe that the unobservable entities postulated by well-confirmed theories exist.
Non-realist positions do not necessarily disagree with the above statement. What they disagree with is the realist notion that language and conceptual structures correspond to the "unobservable" entities that exist i.e. they reject notion language somehow directly maps onto reality. This matter is omitted in the realist position, as presented in the handout.

Note how the realist definition is about what exists, while the other positions are presented as being about what is "said" about what exists.
Quote:
"Constructive empiricism": We have no good reason to suppose that such entities exist. The evidence which supports scientific theories supports only the claim that such theories are "empirically adequate" - that what they say about observable entities is true. We have no reason to suppose that what they say about unobservable entities is true.
The first sentence should really say, "We have no good reason to suppose that such entities exist as described through linguistic conventions."

Also constructive empiricism, is about what can be said; not what is. It is not that the entities do not exist, instead what is said about the entities only have "empirically adequate" confirmation.

Let's look what the handout says about Instrumentalism:
Quote:
Instrumentalism: This is a thesis about the meaning of "theoretical" terms (i.e. terms which appear to refer to unobservable entities). Instrumentalists claim that such terms don't really refer to any such entities. A theory employing theoretical terms is really only "about" the observable world: what makes the theory true is the observable facts being the way the theory says they are.
Note, it says "terms don't really refer to any such entities", which is a statement about the relationship between language and reality. Instrumentalists generally reject correspondence theories of truth and meaning. An instrumentalist might say, "terms represent the entities" in various ways, such as the wave-particle description represents the entities that behave in that way. But that doesn't mean the description is the entity.

The second statement in bold about instrumentalist position is partially correct, however realism has slightly bastardized the position by positing observable and unobservable realms. For an instrumentalist the behavior of electrons is observable, i.e. how it reacts to other particles under certain conditions, such as giving off radiation (light, heat ...etc) suggest something exists, even if the entity itself is not directly observable.
north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 May, 2010 09:41 pm
@LoungeHead,
that is the mandate of science ;

to explore , understand and bring knowledge to the world
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:52 am
@TuringEquivalent,
Long head...We have a language to map reality, and that is math... Language works better for moral forms which is a way of conceiving of spiritual/moral reality... Most of our reality is all meaning without being... You cannot throw god on a scale even if you can hang him on a cross... If the thing cannot be produced it cannot be classed, measured, compared or understood...Well that is the world we live in, the world which presents us with our greatest challenges... We are moral beings, and even our lives cannot be conceived of...
0 Replies
 
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 03:33 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;163824 wrote:
From that paper provided .

This is rather similar to the instrumentalist view, is it not? What we see are dials indicating various measurements - we are not seeing 'something that causes the dials to move', or if we are, it is impossible to surmise what that 'something' is.

I think the realist view has been under threat from quantum mechanics from the outset. The question as to whether subatomic particles exist is still contentious. For example electrons can be seen as waves in some contexts, and particles in others. Even when they are understood as particles, they are understood to be completely indistinguishable one from another. This lead Richard Feynmann to consider whether there is really only one electron in the Universe.

Bernard D'espagnet, who won the Templeton Prize in 2009, believes that

Source



I am sympathetic to Barnard, and Kant. A lot of the "instrumental view" is motivated by Kant ` s Transcendental idealism. There is some truth to this view. Fundamental physics don` t tell us why nature is the way it is in itself. It uses rules of symmetry, and experimental data in the lab to formulate equations that capture the regularities we observe in nature. On a less fundamental level of understand, it does seem that science tell us about the world. It does seem that the equations "explain" the phenomenon. This is of course a delusion. The issue of scientific realism/anti realism is not about the laws of nature being as it is. It is about the status of posits postulated in science to explain what is observed in the lab. These posits are not observable. The realist stance is that they are real, and anti realist stance is that they are not. This is very different from asking why the fundamental laws of nature is the way it is.

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 04:51 PM ----------

LoungeHead;164065 wrote:
TuringEquivalent,

If the handout is any indication of the course, I think non-realist positions are being a little misrepresented. The undergraduate Philosophy of Science course I took had the same problem.

The misrepresentation largely derives from lack of distinction being made about the role of language in relation to the various positions. For example:
Non-realist positions do not necessarily disagree with the above statement. What they disagree with is the realist notion that language and conceptual structures correspond to the "unobservable" entities that exist i.e. they reject notion language somehow directly maps onto reality. This matter is omitted in the realist position, as presented in the handout.

Note how the realist definition is about what exists, while the other positions are presented as being about what is "said" about what exists.
The first sentence should really say, "We have no good reason to suppose that such entities exist as described through linguistic conventions."

Also constructive empiricism, is about what can be said; not what is. It is not that the entities do not exist, instead what is said about the entities only have "empirically adequate" confirmation.

Let's look what the handout says about Instrumentalism:
Note, it says "terms don't really refer to any such entities", which is a statement about the relationship between language and reality. Instrumentalists generally reject correspondence theories of truth and meaning. An instrumentalist might say, "terms represent the entities" in various ways, such as the wave-particle description represents the entities that behave in that way. But that doesn't mean the description is the entity.

The second statement in bold about instrumentalist position is partially correct, however realism has slightly bastardized the position by positing observable and unobservable realms. For an instrumentalist the behavior of electrons is observable, i.e. how it reacts to other particles under certain conditions, such as giving off radiation (light, heat ...etc) suggest something exists, even if the entity itself is not directly observable.



I think you are right that the issue is about language, and reference.


For an unobservable X. The realist would say X is a reference for the name 'X'. The anti realist would say we need not commit to there being an X is the first place for the name 'X'.




Instrumentalists generally reject correspondence theories of truth and meaning.


I doubt it. Consider the observable, dog. We have the name 'dog', and we can obviously spot one when we see it.

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 04:55 PM ----------

Fido;164181 wrote:
Long head...We have a language to map reality, and that is math... Language works better for moral forms which is a way of conceiving of spiritual/moral reality... Most of our reality is all meaning without being... You cannot throw god on a scale even if you can hang him on a cross... If the thing cannot be produced it cannot be classed, measured, compared or understood...Well that is the world we live in, the world which presents us with our greatest challenges... We are moral beings, and even our lives cannot be conceived of...



This is a horrible, uncritical piece of writing.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:13 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
There is a specific text I think would be very helpful in relation to these questions, which I haven't read in total, but have read excerpts from, and that is Physics and Philosophy by Werner Heisenberg.
0 Replies
 
LoungeHead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 02:18 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;164364 wrote:
Quote:
Instrumentalists generally reject correspondence theories of truth and meaning.

I doubt it. Consider the observable, dog. We have the name 'dog', and we can obviously spot one when we see it.

It makes no sense to doubt the instrumentalist position based on language correspondence in the realist position.

Instrumentalism is about the utility of theory and how that utility is the basis for evaluation of scientific theory. Where as truth-evaluation of scientific theory is the realists position, which instrumentalists deny. The handout misleads the reader by re-framing the utility of scientific theory in the instrumentalist position as a claim about truth-value. In doing so, the handout makes a fallacious sleight of hand by reconstituting instrumentalist theory of explanation in terms of realist theory of semantics (in which instrumentalism doesn't actually operate).
0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 11:32 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
The bracketed phenomenological world, all that we know, exhibits regularities. Why? We do not and cannot know. The only explanation of WHY a certain regularity exists is a description of the circumstances under which it DOES IN FACT exist. Sure, one can say that X regularity exists 'because' of Law Q, but law Q is nothing but an abstract statement of the generalized fact THAT X regularity occurs; it is not a causal power. The Law of Gravity does not cause anything; it is a abstract expression of an observed regularity.

So, science is nothing but the attempt to express those regularities in their most general form, and abstractly. The question, then, is not 'how does science manage to accurately predict or describe events in reality,' the question is 'how could it not?' Whatever kind of reality exists for us, if we observe regularities therein, there will be a science which has a successful predictive facility. It could not be otherwise.

So, does science tell us about reality? If by reality we mean the bracketed phenomenological world, then yes, absolutely. Science, understood in the proper epistemological context - i.e. not as description of an 'objective world' - is phenomenology: an account of the world which exists for us.

Of course, it is not the only account and cannot take a preeminent position on the basis of being more 'true.' It is true only insofar as it is an accurate representation of reality - BUT there are multiple realities. If the reality of some individual is unusual, and science therefore is not an accurate representation thereof, then that science is not true in that case; AND, on the basis of not according with science, that person's reality cannot be judged false.

Within a bracketed phenomenological world, the concept of a 'false' reality has no meaning. Appearance IS reality.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 11:46 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
Interesting - so would this be a skeptical philosophy? Or pragmatic (i.e. whatever works). Or both?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 11:54 pm
@jeeprs,
Hard to say...it's obviously phenomenological in its epistemology and ontology. I would also argue its realist...but of course the materialists would say its idealist. I would say the materialists are idealists. O boy, I may have confused myself...Very Happy

I suppose it's skeptical insofar as it's skeptical of materialism...and pragmatic insofar and it attempts to retain everything which we already know, to add no new 'ontological baggage' (like substance, soul, etc.), and to make no moral imperatives that actually affect anything. It aims to be purely descriptive.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 10:40 am
@BrightNoon,
Materialism is a form of idealism... We can only conceive of reality through ideas, and even conceptual manifolds are ideals...
0 Replies
 
 

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