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Genetic Enhancement - Moral or Immoral?

 
 
show me
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 05:52 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs, i fully agree with you
Inventions like these are extremely controversial, and beg for authority to regulate the process by which genetic enhancement is completed. But this kind of control is required or things will get out of control.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 05:54 pm
@show me,
there are many things getting out of control all at once. That is what causes me sleepless nights. At least here we are sane.
0 Replies
 
NeitherExtreme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:28 pm
@show me,
show me;140731 wrote:
Do we not tamper with natural selection already through medicine, environmental and social changes?


First, I'm not any kind of expert on genetics, so these are just the ramblings of an interested layman. That said...

I think the success of the phenotype in it's surroundings is a necessary part of natural selection, and this aspect would remain through social, environmental, and (though maybe to a lesser degree) medical changes.

Genetic enhancement, on the other hand, would bypass natural testing of the phenotype and directly change the genotype. Of course if this happened in small numbers I would think a population could absorb that sort of thing. But if large percentages of entire generations were chosen this way, it seems like things could lose their natural balance pretty fast.
0 Replies
 
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:48 pm
@show me,
NE, I think what Show Me is saying is that when we use penicillin to cure a disease, for example, we are tampering with natural selection to a huge degree. Natural selection would normally wipe out all of those with a weakness to a certain disease.

But of course, it isn't necessarily desirable to allow natural selection to run its course. An example of natural selection is the wiping out of millions of native americans by smallpox (which the Europeans had built up a resistance to via natural selection).

Many of the objections to genetic engineering rely on the naturalistic fallacy. There are plenty of good ones though.

Quote:
most parents would boost the IQ of their child. But what if, for example, a society of people with higher IQ ended up being deficient in other kinds of intelligence. (Wiki article on intelligences.)


That theory of multiple intelligences isn't very well supported. I think it merely stretches the definition of intelligence to reach a feel good conclusion. Most of gardners "intelligences" are heavily reliant on a general intelligence.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:57 pm
@show me,
I am far from convinced that darwinism, natural selecton, and so forth, are actually even applicable to the human species on the time scales that we are considering. It is something that operates over millenia. This is the kind of thing that Galton, Darwin's nutcase of a cousin, was on about - 'eugenetics' and selective breeding of the human race, and so on. But of course, it is the odious example of such people that makes me so unwilling to contemplate giving them the power to tamper with the genetic code.
NeitherExtreme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:20 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;140745 wrote:
NE, I think what Show Me is saying is that when we use penicillin to cure a disease, for example, we are tampering with natural selection to a huge degree. Natural selection would normally wipe out all of those with a weakness to a certain disease.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. That's why I included the "to a lesser degree" clause in my response. I assume that someday we'll have to "pay the piper" when genetic weaknesses add up over generations. And I suspect GE, for better or worse, will be one way that we will attempt to deal with this. I hope it works out for the better.

Jebediah;140745 wrote:

Many of the objections to genetic engineering rely on the naturalistic fallacy. There are plenty of good ones though.

Oh I am definetly aware of the naturalistic fallacy, and tend to fall on the "unnatural" side of things. People lived completely "organically" not too long ago... and life expectancy was something like 45 years (maybe less?). No thanks. My point is that there might be more purpose in the "random" distribution of traits we see in a population, and that we should consider this before changing a population's genetics en masse.

Jebediah;140745 wrote:

That theory of multiple intelligences isn't very well supported. I think it merely stretches the definition of intelligence to reach a feel good conclusion. Most of gardners "intelligences" are heavily reliant on a general intelligence.

That's fine. All I was trying to say is that if most parents end up picking one particular trait, it seems likely that there could end up being a corresponding lack of another important trait in the population.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:31 pm
@NeitherExtreme,
NeitherExtreme;140750 wrote:
Yeah, I see what you're saying. That's why I included the "to a lesser degree" clause in my response. I assume that someday we'll have to "pay the piper" when genetic weaknesses add up over generations. And I suspect GE, for better or worse, will be one way that we will attempt to deal with this. I hope it works out for the better.


It may end up being the only way we can deal with it.
Quote:


Oh I am definetly aware of the naturalistic fallacy, and tend to fall on the "unnatural" side of things. People lived completely "organically" not too long ago... and life expectancy was something like 45 years (maybe less?). No thanks. My point is that there might be more purpose in the "random" distribution of traits we see in a population, and that we should consider this before changing a population's genetics en masse.
This is very true. Sometimes there is a very good reason for things to be the way they are, that we just aren't aware of. At least I think so, although I can't think of an example at the moment. Perhaps the lack of rabbits in australia.

I do remember reading an article about a cure for plaque they came up with. It was a modified form of the bacteria that cause plaque and cavities. Modified to release a toxin that killed the regular bacteria and didn't harm the teeth. One swish and you never have to visit the dentist again. But it said they weren't going to do anything with it at the moment because of the risk of it getting out into the environment and wreaking havoc.


Quote:
That's fine. All I was trying to say is that if most parents end up picking one particular trait, it seems likely that there could end up being a corresponding lack of another important trait in the population.
For intelligence at least they seem to go together. Increasing verbal intelligence helps social intelligence etc.

jeeprs wrote:
I am far from convinced that darwinism, natural selecton, and so forth, are actually even applicable to the human species on the time scales that we are considering. It is something that operates over millenia.


I can't remember how this goes exactly. I think I've heard arguments both for it working over a short time period and for over a longer. But I hope the human race will be around for millenia after genetic enhancement at least.
0 Replies
 
NeitherExtreme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:34 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;140748 wrote:
I am far from convinced that darwinism, natural selecton, and so forth, are actually even applicable to the human species on the time scales that we are considering.


True, I should be careful about using "natural selection" too loosely. I don't mean to suggest any significant evolution of the species, only the kinds of traits that are already present and can be passed on (or not) to the next generation. I guess I just assume that there is some natural (unplanned) balance to these things, and that upsetting that balance could be dangerous. But then again, maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

---------- Post added 03-17-2010 at 08:37 PM ----------

Jebediah;140754 wrote:

I do remember reading an article about a cure for plaque they came up with. It was a modified form of the bacteria that cause plaque and cavities. Modified to release a toxin that killed the regular bacteria and didn't harm the teeth. One swish and you never have to visit the dentist again. But it said they weren't going to do anything with it at the moment because of the risk of it getting out into the environment and wreaking havoc.

Very interesting...:detective:
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 08:29 pm
@show me,
show me;140731 wrote:
Do we not tamper with natural selection already through medicine, environmental and social changes?


Hello Show me and welcome. Yes, and exactly what tampering means. When we tamper with anything we disturb it's natural state. When we take antibiotics we tamper with our immune system. We disturb it and it does not operate as efficiently. Now one could argue a person's immune system is not strong enough to weather the storm. For what ever reason that my be we must focus on WHY the immune system is weak. That is the priority! There could be any number of reasons for that, even genetic; still the problem should be nipped at the root. Given time nature and the body will heal. Some say 7 generations? I have no idea. I do believe we can heal ourselves. The problem with that is our lack of understanding as to what our continuum means. Many very smart people believe when your dead your dead and it is necessary to "fix us" now for time is running out.

Anything we can do to aid in the comfort for those who for whatever reason are victims of what can be said to be abnormalities, we should do that, but restrict that science to those individuals and those individuals alone. Any notion of extending such research simply to make us smarter and better would have disastrous results. Hell were to damn smart for our own good now. I would hate to think of what could happen if we were any smarter.

william
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 08:49 am
@show me,
show me;140509 wrote:
Do you think that genetic enhancement regarding phenotypes is moral or immoral?
For example, being able to chose your unborn child's hair colour, eye colour, height, or even IQ.

In all honestly, I don't think it is immoral when it is "taken with a grain of salt". But when used in extreme ways, then that's when immorality takes place.

Comments?
Imo it's not, then it would be immoral to be ritch, and buy better things than Joe Average.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:03 pm
@show me,
show me;140509 wrote:
Do you think that genetic enhancement regarding phenotypes is moral or immoral?
For example, being able to chose your unborn child's hair colour, eye colour, height, or even IQ.

In all honestly, I don't think it is immoral when it is "taken with a grain of salt". But when used in extreme ways, then that's when immorality takes place.

Comments?


where does the higher IQ go for further stimulation , though ?
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 04:23 pm
@show me,
Imo "playing god" is poor term, we are already playing god, keeping people alive through dialysis, incubators for babies, keeping terminal ill people alive ..often in sever inhuman pain, we do bypass ops, life support for coma Jane/John Doe

...so, I don't excatly see it as anything new ..man playing God. It's just that we'r so used to these things, that we don't really notice them.
0 Replies
 
 

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