Republic of Heaven

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Philip Pullman wrote:

A sense of belonging, a sense of being part of a real and important story, a sense of being connected to other people, to people who are not here any more, to those who have gone before us. And a sense of being connected to the universe itself.

All those things were promised and summed up in the phrase, 'The Kingdom of Heaven'. But if the Kingdom is dead, we still need those things. We can't live without those things because it's too bleak, it's too bare and we don't need to. We can find a way of creating them for ourselves if we think in terms of a Republic of Heaven.

This is not a Kingdom but a Republic, in which we are all free and equal citizens, with - and this is the important thing - responsibilities. With the responsibility to make this place into a Republic of Heaven for everyone. Not to live in it in a state of perpetual self-indulgence, but to work hard to make this place as good as we possibly can.

Gerrard Winstanley wrote:

The kingdom of heaven promised us certain things: it promised us happiness and a sense of purpose and a sense of having a place in the universe, of having a role and a destiny that were noble and splendid; and so we were connected to things. We were not alienated. But now that, for me anyway, the King is dead, I find that I still need these things that heaven promised, and I'm not willing to live without them. I don't think I will continue to live after I'm dead, so if I am to achieve these things I must try to bring them about - and encourage other people to bring them about - on earth, in a republic in which we are all free and equal - and responsible - citizens.

Now, what does this involve? It involves all the best qualities of things. We mustn't shut anything out. If the Church has told us, for example, that forgiving our enemies is good, and if that seems to be a good thing to do, we must do it. If, on the other hand, those who struggled against the Church have shown us that free inquiry and unfettered scientific exploration is good - and I believe that they have - then we must hold this up as a good as well.
Whatever we can find that we feel to be good - and not just feel but can see with the accumulated wisdom that we have as we grow up, and read about history and learn from our own experiences and so on - wherever they come from, and whoever taught them in the first place, let's use them and do whatever we can do to make the world a little bit better.

Let us assume there is no God, no story of salvation, no afterlife, nothing like that. What can we learn from the religious notion of 'Heaven', as far as it can be applied here? What steps might we take toward this end?

In other words, how might we reach utopia? Can we reach utopia? If so, what does it look like?

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@cberman,

cberman;137078 wrote:

If so, what does it look like?

Quick thought; it looks like heaven, is heaven something we can always see or can never see?
We all need to die before eutopia can be believed?
Not believed, relieved?
Die before we can receive it?
Die before we can achieve it?

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@cberman,

I don't think heaven or utopia should be viewed as a state that might be achieved at some point in the future. It is a matter of living in the present and reconciling oneself to the fact that there is no heaven or utopia.

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@cberman,

Is there a line, though? At one end you have the people who believe a utopia in reality can exist...and others who say nothing matters and therefore, destroy what you have to for yourself because it doesn't matter.

Should we strive for something we know we cannot reach? I suppose we do that with anything. Happiness, eternally, guaranteed, is impossible but is sought after. Knowledge is exponentially presenting itself as bigger than we have / can imagine, and the more you know the more you realize you don't know. Is the notion of utopia what drives socialists, communists, any die hard member of some political faction? Or some passionate philosopher?

Don't we all try to "figure it out" - but can it ever really be figured out? Probably not, right, but we all still try.

edit: How I metaphorically twisted this is a lot similar to reconstructo's donkey and carrot thread / analogy.

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@cberman,

Heaven as a quasi concept tells us more about us than we will ever know about heaven... Was it Jesus who said my kingdom is not of this world??? How would we know it???

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@cberman,

@sometime sun: Half of your questions don't make sense. But central to all of them appears to be some notion of the afterlife. In my post, I noted that I am assuming there is no afterlife. The quotes I provided also work on this sort of notion.

@Insty: Surely we must admit that heaven itself, as religiously conceived as some sort of otherworldly land, is false. But can we not learn something from the concept? Can we not work to bring a certain something about, beyond an affirmation of individualism? Don't get me wrong; I'm all for the 'glorification' of the human individual, but what are we capable of for the rest of the world?

@BMC: The Republic Pullman and Winstanley refer to in the quotes above is not an eternal confirmation (though there are interesting studies in the world of aging), but something for the sake of the life. That everyone dies is known. Striving to make the world a 'heaven' for those who live, however, may not be 'something we cannot reach.'

Yes; we have had difficulty in the past trying to figure this out, but I certainly don't think that entails that we never will.

@Fido: Did you read my post? Heaven, not as Jesus spoke of it, or as the Bible presents it, but as something we create here.

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@cberman,

That is basically my reasoning and purpose for my continued existence.

I know, and maybe most of us know, that we will probably not see the world go through any enlightenment anytime soon, nor do I think any other spearheaded utopias will show themselves anytime soon. But we keep trying to figure it out, so we can pass what we've learned about the whole mess to the next generation, right?

And in that regard, to go off on a tangent, I think the education system is an important issue. That system is where young minds, in this country, are molded for the most part. Parents, most of them, I don't think have nearly the same time with their children that the institution does.

I also think it's a values issue, and depending on what we value, what others value, and whether it's feasible and sustainable, will determine how much like "Heaven" it is, right?

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@cberman,

cberman;137078 wrote:

Let us assume there is no God, no story of salvation, no afterlife, nothing like that. What can we learn from the religious notion of 'Heaven', as far as it can be applied here? What steps might we take toward this end?

In other words, how might we reach utopia? Can we reach utopia? If so, what does it look like?

I would rather say: let us not assume there is a God ...

I think what is first needed is a belief that there is a real difference between good and evil, and a real difference between truth and falsehood.

Without the first of these simple and untutored beliefs, the idea of a Heaven, whether it be a Kingdom or a Republic, is meaningless.

Without the second belief, there is no hope of finding our way anywhere.

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@cberman,

cberman;137078 wrote:

...What can we learn from the religious notion of 'Heaven', as far as it can be applied here?

Not much; except that perhaps as we've iconized the concept of Heaven as an ultimate achievement - of a sorts - it says this perpetual bliss and peace is central to what we seek. So in that way, it educates us about our desires.

cberman;137078 wrote:

What steps might we take toward this end?

This is a lot to bite off at once. On the whole, I'd say we'd need to first recognize that whatever heavenly state (on earth) we want to be in - or attain - must be individually defined; in short, we'd need to discover what makes us personally happy. Ask anyone, from a 6 year old on up, and they'll likely tell you they know what makes them happy. But I believe only through long discovery of what_one_really_is, can each person even begin to know what makes them happy. We reach for ghosts, what we *think* will happy-ize us, but so many are temporary because they miss the mark.

So yea, first step: Learn to know ourselves, our individual natures, to then find what is needed to attain states of happiness (and yes, they come and go like tides and ebbs of waves - it's not a constant state - that's something else).

cberman;137078 wrote:

In other words, how might we reach utopia? Can we reach utopia? If so, what does it look like?

In a perpetual way - it's non-existent and unattainable, in the context in which we're talking. I think I can say, euphemistically, that I've "visited" Utopia, but its not a place one can live.

Thanks

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@cberman,

cberman;137078 wrote:

Let us assume there is no God, no story of salvation, no afterlife, nothing like that.

I must admit I am struggling to make sense of this, particularly the breezy way in which it is dispensed.

The only reaction that honestly comes to mind is, why are you asking this and what are you looking for?

My intuitive reaction to your post is that you are actually seeking to address an inner conflict, not engage in a dialog.

But that could be me.

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