Nationalism and the Olympics.

what about hearing God bless America all the time?

I hate the idea of compition but it seems necessary in sports.

I don't get the impression that the olympics breeds nationalism. All it seems to do is reflect it.

What have to do people instead? Look at each other? Have some tea?

How prachtig in British Colombia!

Maybe the games should now be held between multinational corporations.

As you know, the Olympics are coming to Vancouver, with the opening ceremonies only a few days away the radio has been absolutely force feeding everything "Canada" down my throat. Naturally, I have been thinking about the games a lot, and I think I have come to the conclusion that I don't like them. Primarily for the same reason I have a bone to pick with Theology. I see Theology, and Nationalism as forces that divide people at the very core of their beliefs, whether they are conscious of it, or it's subconscious. This does not fit well with the growing trend of the "We are all one." mentality.

So I want to know your thoughts on the issue.

Is National pride something that consciously, or subconsciously deters people from uniting, whether it be their beliefs, customs, or willingness to trade/share/help others. Or is it something that drives these qualities. Take the earthquake in Haiti for example, the amount of money flowing in from around the world is huge. Is nationalism a reason for the leading donating nations to give so much? To make their country look good? Or is that just human "spirit" coming together to help others less fortunate.

Comment, diss, disect!

Yes, but I am wondering at a more basic level; why would someone be proud of things that are beyond one's control, and are not a part of oneself? To give a trivial sort of example, why should someone be proud of the local athletic team, if they are not themselves part of the team? The team's performance is not a reflection on the person, so why would the person be proud of this?

The same idea applies to place of birth; one does not choose one's place of birth, so why be proud of it? That choice, insofar as it was a choice, was made by someone else.

I am reminded of the funny song by Gilbert and Sullivan, part of which is:

[INDENT][INDENT]For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman! [/INDENT][/INDENT]

Of course, this is but a joke in a comic opera, but why would anyone be serious about such a thing?

Just because the blood of a great man "runs in your veins", that does not make you great. If you found out that you were really switched at birth, and it turns out that your father was a mass murderer, it would not change what you are. You are what you are regardless of what your father was, though, naturally, you share some genetic similarities. But genetic similarities do not mean that one is very much like the other person; for example, normal people can have mentally retarded children, and the children are no smarter than they are simply because their parents are normal. Or, to express the same basic idea differently, a man is not a great man just because his father is, and he does not fail to be a great man simply because his father failed to be a great man. I think people tend to imagine themselves better than they are because of things that are irrelevant to their own actual worth.

If you, for example, had been born in Uganda, but were raised as you were raised, it would not make you a worse person. Likewise, if it turned out that you were the result of artificial insemination, and the clinic mixed things up, so that your father was Hitler, it would not make you worse than you are. Nor would it make you better if it turned out instead that it was a different mixup, and your father was Einstein.

Now, from the other way around, if one raised one's own children, then the children's conduct, insofar as it was influenced by how one raised the children, could be a source of pride or shame, because then it would be because of what one did. But unless you have influenced your parents, it seems odd to say that one is "proud" of them, unless one is imagining some further connection than there is.

As for your claims that "First of all, you can be proud of the parent because he had done something great. That doesn't mean you are proud of yourself.", seems a bit odd when I look up the word "proud" in a dictionary:

Quote:

proud  adjective, -er, -est, adverb

-adjective
1. feeling pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to oneself (often fol. by of, an infinitive, or a clause).
2. having, proceeding from, or showing a high opinion of one's own dignity, importance, or superiority.
3. having or showing self-respect or self-esteem.
4. highly gratifying to the feelings or self-esteem: It was a proud day for him when his son entered college.
5. highly honorable or creditable: a proud achievement.
6. stately, majestic, or magnificent: proud cities.
7. of lofty dignity or distinction: a proud name; proud nobles.
8. Chiefly South Midland and Southern U.S. pleased; happy: I'm proud to meet you.
9. full of vigor and spirit: a proud young stallion.
10. Obsolete. brave.
-Idiom
11. do one proud,
a. to be a source of pride or credit to a person: His conduct in such a difficult situation did him proud.
b. to treat someone or oneself generously or lavishly: You really did us proud with this supper.

Proud Definition | Definition of Proud at Dictionary.com

There seems to me to be, by definition, a reference to self when one is proud. So I don't know what you mean by your sentences quoted just above the definitions. One might respect and admire the achievements of others, but it seems to make little sense to be proud of such things.

I think you are misusing the word "proud". At least by all of the relevant definitions I have quoted above, "proud" contains a reference to an attitude toward oneself.

I am, of course, familiar with people saying things like, "I am proud of my country", but very often, that is meant as a boast of some sort, such that the person feels as though they are better for it. They are, as I indicated above, wrong about that, but in being wrong in that way, they are not misusing the term; they are simply wrong. But unless there is a definition of "proud" of which I am unaware, you are misusing the term, as it is like saying,

[INDENT]you may feel pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to yourself regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]

or

[INDENT]you may have a high opinion of your own dignity, importance, or superiority regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]

or

[INDENT]you may have or show self-respect or self-esteem regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]


Being proud, by definition, has reference to one's attitude toward oneself. If you disagree, please find a definition of the term "proud" from an ordinary dictionary that fits with what you are saying, and let me know what the definition is, and where you got it.

Notice the way even you word it: proud of MY son, proud of MY country. Pride is essentially a feeling having to do with self worth, and what is happening in many such cases is the same kind of thing as guilt by association, except instead of guilt, it is a positive feeling. One is not proud of something to which the word "my" cannot apply. One may respect and admire or even be in awe of something else, but the word "proud" is not applicable to things that do not have reference to oneself.

I think, for economics, the Games should be back in Greece. The Olympic Summer Games could easily be held in Olympia again. There's enpough room to build a new swimming-pool, olympic size so you don't bang your head diving in.

For the wintergames we could use the Mt.Olympus in Macedonia. Saves a lot of trouble moving around. On the way we could stop in Delphi for the games of Pytha.

As for helping people in Haiti, I don't think nationalism has much to do with it. Good people want to help those in great need, not primarily because they want their home country to be thought of as great. Do you seriously imagine that most people are helping primarily because they think it will make their own countries look good to do so?

:Glasses:I forgot to mention the plays in Athens! NIce cultural stop on the way North.