Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 08:16 am
@xris,
xris;127834 wrote:
I never know if we are becoming better or more self serving. I see many kindnesses but also see many terrible things that I cant comprehend. We can only do our best Alan. I hope if I do a good service it has a ripple effect on others. We do reap what we sow.


Hopefully we can become stones of love, causing ripples of Goodness in the great lake of human existence
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 03:18 am
@Twirlip,
My own idiosyncratic take on the OP. I don't say too much about God as I believe the word has become too laden with history to serve its real purpose. Nevertheless I have a general belief that there is an infinite good that has no opposite. This is contrasted with various other types of good, which are always transitory or unsatisfactory in some respects.

I am reading about Plotinus at the moment. Actually an edition of the Enneads is on my next Amazon order. His view was that the material realm was not actually evil (like the Gnostics thought) but nevertheless generally unsatisfactory. It was our spiritual goal to remember The One that was beyond all opposites. I think Plotinus would understand evil as the 'privation of the good'. It is basically turning your back to the light, or not acting in your own best interests. But it has no real being. There is an ultimate good, but no ultimate evil. (I will find a reference for this in Plotinus if you wish. I think it is also the view of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

Another spiritual teacher who has greatly inspired me is Ramana Maharishi, the Vedanta sage. He just said straight out that evil was illusory and had no existence whatever. I guess it didn't exist for him, because he was a 'self-realized being' who lived altogether on another plane of reality. When I repeat this here, it sounds completely implausible of course. It seems obvious to us that there are plenty of evil people. But when he says it, it is strangely convincing. (His is the other book on my next Amazon order. I had the Teachings of Ramana Maharishi 25 years ago, but gave it away.)

As for 'devil' - I do think this is a figurative reality. That is to say, there is a real sense in which there is a voice - not an actual voice, but a kind of tendency - which constantly urges you to...well, choose your poison, as the saying has it. I have found in my own experience that this was very dominating at some stages in my life. It usually turned up as addictions, restlessness, and craving. I can say that now in hindsight. It wasn't nearly so clear cut at the time. I guess depending on what kind of habitual tendencies you have, and the kind of environment you find yourself in, these voices/tendencies/urges could lead you into all kinds of mayhem, which is what they enjoy.

Sometimes I think 'the devil' basically gets his kicks via humans. He gets them to live out the stuff he can't do. Figuratively speaking, of course.

It is possible that both God and Satan are symbolic representations. But they represent something. They are not just imaginary, in the vulgar sense. But the last person I will mention is Martin Luther. I have been reading a book about the theological origins of modernity. Of course, he is writ large. The author suggests, and I think this is true, that in Luther's world, God's omnipotence is such that he also commands the devil as well. The devil only exists on the sufferance of God, who could, if he so wished, cause him to cease existing at any moment. This of course is a deeply troubling vision. My feeling is that he projected his particular vision of God and Satan out onto the Cosmos out of some inner conflict of some kind. But then I really do think Luther was a deeply troubled man. I suppose that is a very controversial thing to say, as far as many Christians are concerned, but I am willing to reconsider it if I can be shown to be wrong. But the recent history of Christianity does not auger well.

For now, I'm sticking with Plotinus and the Buddha.

---------- Post added 02-20-2010 at 08:28 PM ----------

And don't forget the great saying in the Tao te Ching 'the Way that can be named is not the real Way'. So any mention of the Way, the One, or even God, for that matter, is, strictly speaking, figurative or metaphorical.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 04:32 am
@jeeprs,
Your last sentence is the essence of mans inability. Even to mention his name is a mistake. You can read as many books as you like but no one in history has ever been capable of mentioning god and proceed to make a rational description, that defines him as a logical image. The Tao has accepted the agnostic view, he is beyond comprehension.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:33 am
@Twirlip,
That is what meditation is for. To find the nameless way, you must enter by the gateless gate.

(gong sound)
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:35 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130229 wrote:
That is what meditation is for. To find the nameless way, you must enter by the gateless gate.

(gong sound)
Have you found it enough to satisfy yourself?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:35 am
@Twirlip,
I have found enough to stop looking
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:52 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130231 wrote:
I have found enough to stop looking
Can you transmit that knowledge?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 03:53 pm
@Twirlip,
I don't know if I can transmit it, but I can say a few words about my own experiences. I have learned a lot through meditation that can't be learned through reading and thinking. I was lucky enough to find a teacher in 1978, although there is the saying 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear' which I am sure is true. My initial teaching was from an awareness training school called 'Transformations' that appeared in Sydney in about 1978. They taught a combination of group-awareness training, similar to EST, and a meditation practice similar to Transcendental Meditation. Not long afterward I learned about Buddhist meditation and started to practice along those lines. All the time I was reading a lot also. At the time it was mainly Krishnamurti and Zen. These books were very popular among certain circles back then. I was also studying Comparative Religion at University. I definitely had what in Zen is known as satori.

But things are never what you expect. It wasn't as if suddenly everything clicked and I was walking around on clouds. Nothing like that. I did get this new type of awareness, but it is hard to explain and not easy to articulate. But I still had a whole bunch of things to work out in the making a living department and all that kind of thing. It wasn't like The Secret, where suddenly everything just materialised. (Maybe it is for some people!) But anyway I stuck with this practice, even though there were periods where I gave it away and times when I had forgotten all about it. But I also kept reading. So now I find I have been reading and practicing for 30 years. That is no big deal, when you get to 56 there are many things you have been doing for 30 years. But this awareness has taken root and has a life of its own now, and about 5 years ago I formally took refuge which signifies one's commitment to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. So now I am beginning to understand those enigmatic Zen sayings, but it takes some doing, I can tell you.

Why Buddhism? It makes the most sense to me. But I never try and convert anyone to it. I am one of the 'many paths' school. There are many paths. (This is one of the things that infuriates Christians about India:bigsmile:). It is also the reason I continue to read in other philosophies (for example Neoplatonism). As to which path one should be on, if you ask the question seriously, an answer will become apparent. We are lucky to have so much information at hand, and so many teaching centers available. 'Keep your eyes wide, the chance won't come again'.

Anyway that's my story. I put together a list of the main books that I read over the years at Amazon.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 05:05 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130373 wrote:
I don't know if I can transmit it, but I can say a few words about my own experiences. I have learned a lot through meditation that can't be learned through reading and thinking. I was lucky enough to find a teacher in 1978, although there is the saying 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear' which I am sure is true. My initial teaching was from an awareness training school called 'Transformations' that appeared in Sydney in about 1978. They taught a combination of group-awareness training, similar to EST, and a meditation practice similar to Transcendental Meditation. Not long afterward I learned about Buddhist meditation and started to practice along those lines. All the time I was reading a lot also. At the time it was mainly Krishnamurti and Zen. These books were very popular among certain circles back then. I was also studying Comparative Religion at University. I definitely had what in Zen is known as satori.

But things are never what you expect. It wasn't as if suddenly everything clicked and I was walking around on clouds. Nothing like that. I did get this new type of awareness, but it is hard to explain and not easy to articulate. But I still had a whole bunch of things to work out in the making a living department and all that kind of thing. It wasn't like The Secret, where suddenly everything just materialised. (Maybe it is for some people!) But anyway I stuck with this practice, even though there were periods where I gave it away and times when I had forgotten all about it. But I also kept reading. So now I find I have been reading and practicing for 30 years. That is no big deal, when you get to 56 there are many things you have been doing for 30 years. But this awareness has taken root and has a life of its own now, and about 5 years ago I formally took refuge which signifies one's commitment to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. So now I am beginning to understand those enigmatic Zen sayings, but it takes some doing, I can tell you.

Why Buddhism? It makes the most sense to me. But I never try and convert anyone to it. I am one of the 'many paths' school. There are many paths. (This is one of the things that infuriates Christians about India:bigsmile:). It is also the reason I continue to read in other philosophies (for example Neoplatonism). As to which path one should be on, if you ask the question seriously, an answer will become apparent. We are lucky to have so much information at hand, and so many teaching centers available. 'Keep your eyes wide, the chance won't come again'.

Anyway that's my story. I put together a list of the main books that I read over the years at Amazon.
But Buddhism has no god, I partially agree with the idea that god is not essential. So why have you found god through a system that has no god?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:40 am
@xris,
xris;130671 wrote:
But Buddhism has no god, I partially agree with the idea that god is not essential. So why have you found god through a system that has no god?


Well technically Buddhism does refer to gods. It just says that they are nothing special. They reside in the form realm of desire and are still bound by karma. Buddhism doesn't actually say gods don't exist like some might try to argue.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 08:02 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;130684 wrote:
Well technically Buddhism does refer to gods. It just says that they are nothing special. They reside in the form realm of desire and are still bound by karma. Buddhism doesn't actually say gods don't exist like some might try to argue.
So what description of god could you find in Buddhism that qualifies as logical? How would meditating bring you knowledge of god that you cant relay to others?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 09:36 am
@xris,
xris;130694 wrote:
So what description of god could you find in Buddhism that qualifies as logical? How would meditating bring you knowledge of god that you cant relay to others?


Well they wouldn't phrase it like that since no well studied Buddhist would ever say you obtain wisdom from an external source. It can point the way but actually it is only you who realizes the truth. So there is no reliance upon another being for salvation according to the Buddhist philosophy. Since that is the case, you also can not teach the wisdom that is realized. If you could, we all would be wise, or to put it in Buddhist terms, enlightened. You would be able to sell enlightenment. Where ever I have seen it advertised I have purchased it only to discover it was just a marketing scheme to get me to buy what it was advertising.

The Buddha is even noted by saying, "Make yourself an island." Rely only upon yourself to discover what is truth, if it leads you towards non-suffering adopt it, if it leads you towards suffering, abandon it. If it causes others to suffer to enact it, abandon it. If relieves others of their suffering, embrace it. But he also said to be warned that often times what appears to be right, is actually not right, and what is sometimes mistaken to be not right, is actually right.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 09:46 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;130724 wrote:
Well they wouldn't phrase it like that since no well studied Buddhist would ever say you obtain wisdom from an external source. It can point the way but actually it is only you who realizes the truth. So there is no reliance upon another being for salvation according to the Buddhist philosophy. Since that is the case, you also can not teach the wisdom that is realized. If you could, we all would be wise, or to put it in Buddhist terms, enlightened. You would be able to sell enlightenment. Where ever I have seen it advertised I have purchased it only to discover it was just a marketing scheme to get me to buy what it was advertising.

The Buddha is even noted by saying, "Make yourself an island." Rely only upon yourself to discover what is truth, if it leads you towards non-suffering adopt it, if it leads you towards suffering, abandon it. If it causes others to suffer to enact it, abandon it. If relieves others of their suffering, embrace it. But he also said to be warned that often times what appears to be right, is actually not right, and what is sometimes mistaken to be not right, is actually right.
Sorry it fails to impress me. It appears very introvert. If you think you have found god and you cant communicate that belief in a logical manner then its no different to any other blind faith. No man is an island and to seek something from this life that benefits only you, is self serving.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 11:04 am
@xris,
xris;130729 wrote:
Sorry it fails to impress me. It appears very introvert. If you think you have found god and you cant communicate that belief in a logical manner then its no different to any other blind faith. No man is an island and to seek something from this life that benefits only you, is self serving.


Benefits only you? If that is what you got from that small paragraph then you didn't even read it.

"If it relieves others of their suffering, embrace it."

How is that self serving?

Some times I wonder why I even bother to respond to or make responses to your posts. I feel like I am just communicating with a wall. Sure it can type but it surely doesn't know how to read. Don't even ask me about comprehension.

Oh by the way the island part actually refers to the fact that all you can really trust when it is all said and done, is your own understanding. But I guess that means you wouldn't understand what I'm saying either since you only want to understand your own self anyways. Who is self serving now?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 11:51 am
@Krumple,
Sorry but I did read it and hesitated replying. I find it conceived , contrived these actions. Why should I be told only to act when it is beneficial to my karma. Your reaction tells me you have not learnt the lesson you so instruct me to apply. Instructions to find yourselves salvation, not for me. Its not the actions that I oppose its the self interest in applying them that worries me. What if they opposed your ethical reasoning but gave you karma , would you apply them?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:18 pm
@Twirlip,
I don't recall saying I had 'found God'. You can read that into it, but I didn't say it.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:27 pm
@xris,
xris;130757 wrote:
Sorry but I did read it and hesitated replying. I find it conceived , contrived these actions. Why should I be told only to act when it is beneficial to my karma. Your reaction tells me you have not learnt the lesson you so instruct me to apply. Instructions to find yourselves salvation, not for me. Its not the actions that I oppose its the self interest in applying them that worries me. What if they opposed your ethical reasoning but gave you karma , would you apply them?


It wasn't about reducing karma, it was about reducing the potential for suffering. That was the whole concern for the Buddha. The whole teaching is around dukkha, loosely translated as suffering. But it implies that suffering is more than just pain, sadness, worry or anxiety, but instead losing what you have either mental or material when attached will cause you to suffer. Worrying about losing something mental or material when attached will cause you to suffer. Fear, low self esteem, sickness, dying are all included. It basically says for the most part, life is unsatisfacotry and we spend one hundred percent of the time either trying to avoid it or capture happiness. The Buddha is only advising methods to reduce the chances of suffering and increase the chances of obtaining some contentment.

I mentioned nothing about karma or any theoretical future existence. So why do you keep talking about karma?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:34 pm
@Twirlip,
I believe that the Buddha's teaching is also a transcendent teaching. He is teaching from the viewpoint of one who 'gone beyond'. This is the meaning of the honorific title 'tathagata' - one who has gone thus. There are positive descriptions given of Nirvana, but it is not something that can be imagined. But it is not simply annihilation or non-existence.

What Buddhist meditation opened up for me is a sense of compassion towards all beings. That too is not something that can be thought up, because it has to originate in the heart. This is something real - generations of teachers and practitioners have attested to it.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:37 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;130787 wrote:
I don't recall saying I had 'found God'. You can read that into it, but I didn't say it.
So you have not found god?

---------- Post added 02-21-2010 at 03:50 PM ----------

Krumple;130791 wrote:
It wasn't about reducing karma, it was about reducing the potential for suffering. That was the whole concern for the Buddha. The whole teaching is around dukkha, loosely translated as suffering. But it implies that suffering is more than just pain, sadness, worry or anxiety, but instead losing what you have either mental or material when attached will cause you to suffer. Worrying about losing something mental or material when attached will cause you to suffer. Fear, low self esteem, sickness, dying are all included. It basically says for the most part, life is unsatisfacotry and we spend one hundred percent of the time either trying to avoid it or capture happiness. The Buddha is only advising methods to reduce the chances of suffering and increase the chances of obtaining some contentment.

I mentioned nothing about karma or any theoretical future existence. So why do you keep talking about karma?
So what was Buddha trying to achieve by his teaching? I can understand certain education being relevant but telling me not do something that might hurt others is pretty basic stuff. Excuse me but I thought the followers had found purpose by stopping the endless cycle of life and death by means of certain examples. It gives fine examples of making life a lot less stressful but it is self serving in its intentions. Priests dont lock themselves away for others benefit , they are finding enlightenment for themselves. I'm sorry that I upset you in criticising your chosen path but no one or anything is above investigation.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 03:22 pm
@xris,
xris;130796 wrote:
So you have not found god?


By way of response, I will put together a post in the Buddhism forum which will explain why for me, this question does not have a yes or no answer.

As for an answer to the question 'What was Buddha trying to achieve by his teaching?', that I think would take a fair amount of reading to understand. I am sure there is an answer to it, but not one that is easy to dash off in a few lines of text.

Meanwhile if you feel like doing some reading on the first question, here is an essay on Buddhism and the God-idea from a Theravada Buddhist scholar.
 

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