salima
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 03:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;110627 wrote:
So you think that for all we know, we may someday find out that there are no other people than us; or that the Sun and Moon would not exist unless people existed; or that we really have no body-no hands, no eyes, no head? Or that the world was created about five minutes ago? Hmmm.


well, for example the monitor in front of you appears to be solid, but as you look at it from the inside out and the vantage point of the nucleus of an atom it isnt solid. but for the purpose of repairing the thing it would be stupid to worry about that. i think that is common sense.

but i dont think the fellow had listed all the common sense beliefs there are in the article, so there must be some that are liable to change when new facts are discovered and evidence is agreed upon.

he wasnt saying what he wrote are all the common sense beliefs was he? i cant remember every single one, so i would have to go back and read that again (i really dont want to do that) before i could say whether or not i think it possible that any of them will be proved false.

was it a common sense belief that there is no water on the moon? it could be that, even though i really tried, i missed the point. i almost stopped to count the words in one of his sentences, they were so long by the time i got to the middle i forgot where i was and had to start over...
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 11:11 pm
@Quinn phil,
Common-sense is what your dad tells you is important when he sees you reading too many books, too many being more than he reads. Commonsense is bringing an umbrella along. But the "crooked roads without improvement are roads of genius." Blake. Of course Mr. Genius doesn't accomplish much if he dies of pneumonia in the rain or hits his head on a rock in the ditch.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 01:26 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110801 wrote:
Common-sense is what your dad tells you is important when he sees you reading too many books, too many being more than he reads. Commonsense is bringing an umbrella along. But the "crooked roads without improvement are roads of genius." Blake. Of course Mr. Genius doesn't accomplish much if he dies of pneumonia in the rain or hits his head on a rock in the ditch.


and mathematicians also have to remember their zipcode...i guess that is where the stereotype of the absent-minded professor comes from. but there are also absent-minded mystics and absent-minded musicians...

i do believe it can be developed to a certain degree, but it must be something inherent in some people more than others, the same as musical ability or talent for design, etc etc. at one time i believed i was totally linguistic and a mathematical idiot, but after i got out of school and found myself using math in my everyday life my own way on my own terms, i looked into it more and found that a lot of my opinion (and that of teachers, parents, peers) was influenced by myths such as 'you cant excel in both language and math', or 'a girl cant do math', etc. so although i cant say i have a talent for it, i am definitely not a dumb bell when it comes to math or abstract thinking. i mean it is a marked difference between what i was able to do with math in high school and what i found i was capable of later in life.

and furthermore, though we tend to value some skills or talents over others, there is really no 'best' one to have, they all have their uses under different situations. outside of a few geniuses who seemed to excel in everything they tried, most people are not going to excel in the majority of possible accomplishments. but i guess it would be boring if everybody was a genius at everything-then we would have no need of each other, no use for each other, and no reason to even consult each other.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 01:46 am
@salima,
salima;110640 wrote:
well, for example the monitor in front of you appears to be solid, but as you look at it from the inside out and the vantage point of the nucleus of an atom it isnt solid. but for the purpose of repairing the thing it would be stupid to worry about that. i think that is common sense.

but i dont think the fellow had listed all the common sense beliefs there are in the article, so there must be some that are liable to change when new facts are discovered and evidence is agreed upon.

he wasnt saying what he wrote are all the common sense beliefs was he? i cant remember every single one, so i would have to go back and read that again (i really dont want to do that) before i could say whether or not i think it possible that any of them will be proved false.

was it a common sense belief that there is no water on the moon? it could be that, even though i really tried, i missed the point. i almost stopped to count the words in one of his sentences, they were so long by the time i got to the middle i forgot where i was and had to start over...


Of course it was not a commonsense belief that there was no water on the Moon. Some scientists believed it, and some did not. That's why it was investigated.

But it is a commonsense belief that there are external objects independent of our minds, so that they would not cease to exist when we stop observing them. The question is whether you think that science will ever show that belief is false. Or that it could ever show it is false?

There is no point in your citing beliefs that are not commonsense beliefs to show that what are commonsense beliefs are not commonsense beliefs. You have to show that what are commonsense beliefs are really not.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 01:58 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;110826 wrote:
Of course it was not a commonsense belief that there was no water on the Moon. Some scientists believed it, and some did not. That's why it was investigated.

But it is a commonsense belief that there are external objects independent of our minds, so that they would not cease to exist when we stop observing them. The question is whether you think that science will ever show that belief is false. Or that it could ever show it is false?

There is no point in your citing beliefs that are not commonsense beliefs to show that what are commonsense beliefs are not commonsense beliefs. You have to show that what are commonsense beliefs are really not.


i guess i didnt quite get it then. was the belief that the earth was the center of the universe a commonsense belief? i mean it looked that way to people through their senses at the time and was later proved false.

i would take your word for it, that a common sense belief cant be proved false or wont be proved false, or however you want to word it...but i guess i didnt understand exactly what it is that makes one belief a commonsense belief and another one is not. how many kinds of beliefs are there anyway?

now that i think of it, why should any belief be termed a commonsense belief? you could say some ideas are knuckleheaded beliefs, and some are insane beliefs, some are naive, etc etc etc. is the idea of giving it this label and defining it as such making it a part of a formal logical process?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:22 am
@salima,
salima;110830 wrote:
i guess i didnt quite get it then. was the belief that the earth was the center of the universe a commonsense belief? i mean it looked that way to people through their senses at the time and was later proved false.

i would take your word for it, that a common sense belief cant be proved false or wont be proved false, or however you want to word it...but i guess i didnt understand exactly what it is that makes one belief a commonsense belief and another one is not. how many kinds of beliefs are there anyway?

now that i think of it, why should any belief be termed a commonsense belief? you could say some ideas are knuckleheaded beliefs, and some are insane beliefs, some are naive, etc etc etc. is the idea of giving it this label and defining it as such making it a part of a formal logical process?


A problem, of course, is how to distinguish commonsense beliefs from beliefs that are not commonsense beliefs. But that is no reason to think that there are clearly commonsense beliefs, and clearly non-commonsense beliefs.

Just as it may be hard to distinguish some shades of pink from some shades of red. But that is no reason to think that some shades of pink are not clearly shades of pink and not shades of red, and that there are shades of red that are clearly not shades of pink.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 10:56 am
@Quinn phil,
Hello Quinn and welcome. You bring up a subject that has rarely been discussed and thanks for doing so.

Quinn;110455 wrote:
My conclusion is that common sense varies with every person, based upon what their common knowledge is. Thus, common sense isn't very common at all.


You are accurate in your assumption as it relates to the reality we are currently living in. It is not very common and there are reasons for that. To understand common sense one has to believe in a "mother ship" so to speak that records everything. A mother ship on a voyage that will last for an eternity dispensing with what is wrong to proceed in a right direction toward a perfection that will never be realize; it is the voyage that is important and we are all aboard that ship offering our own 2 cents to it's navigation.

Let's call that ship the USS UNIVERSE and it's Captain "God". Now those who do not believe this will never agree with a common sense, for they have their reasons to believe otherwise and rely on what they think they know as sense to be that of their own choosing with little regard to any notion of what others have known and experienced. That is why common sense is not prevailing as it should and perhaps it we will never understand it in all it entirety. I think it exists and it is very important.

The senses can become confused and this reality is evident of that fact. Of course we are still young and it is understandable why that is so.

Like I said it is a journey. An eternal one. You may argue if you wish. I choose not to. I like believing in that. It is so very comforting for me to think such.

kennethamy;110464 wrote:
I think you should look at the following:
A Defense of Common Sense (link)


Thank you Ken for bringing Moore's analysis to our attention. If you will forgive me I got dizzy reading it. It was a valiant effort on Moore's part to attempt it and for the most part he was correct but try to explain it to the average passenger on this ship to a degree that will be "in common" with all and you will find few who will be able to understand it. If you, yourself, have read it, then perhaps you will help in that if you would so all can understand.

You see that is the problem. "All" is a hard word to use and understand. Granted all do not think and experience the same, but there is, in all of us, that which we share that are in common. That which is true is what guides the "Mother Ship" and the mind is it's communication device and what serendipity is all about or a God consciousness that allows us to hear that which is true and in common with all that will enable us to realize we are a part of that God and that communication it has with all God's various and unique pieces. To explain that cannot be done on an individual basis so don't even try as Moore efforted to do.

As long as the mind is troubled, see list, this reality we are currently experiencing will continue on the slippery slope it is on toward a hell on Earth. You see that's how we learn; we only evolve when we are on the precipice of doom. Sad, we do not learn. But as I said, we are still young, stubborn and like to do things ourselves being the perfect individuals we are and were created as such.

You might ask what is "DOOM". Ha! That's is a matter to concern one's self with, isn't it. Now look at Doom's mirror image; "Mood". Hmm? Fascinating, huh! We do have our mood's don't we? To envision doom is a horrible mood to be in, and there are who believe such and are doing all that can to prepare for it. To think this ship can sink is nothing but folly based on a fear imposed by those who think they know it all. Unfortunately they are aboard this ship too. Do they have the Captain's ear; not hardly. That communication from the Captain to those aboard his ship is one way; it's the noise that keeps many from hearing. Like I said the senses can become confused and there is a lot of profit in that confusion or chaos as it were.

This is a "we" paradigm, not an "I" one as I have often noted and tried to explain since I came aboard this forum. Not easy, to say the least. There is only one "I" and we are a part of that "I". In other words, God is "we", but "we" are not He. Who we are gives life to that majestic Captain. We are His senses, tools and He will utilize them to insure His ship stays on course and once all are allowed to align with that which we have in common, we will come to our senses and they will be utilize in ways we can only imagine at this point. But that is what dreams are made of.

Now I have no idea of what dreams are made of exactly but I use it only for it's positive nature in the context that I used it. Like wishing upon a star and the like or somewhere over the rainbow. How grand that is if it could only be true? And I think it is in ways that cannot be explained, I am rewarded for that and for that I am eternally grateful. If all could only realize what those rewards are, you would want to share them too. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King". Why I said that, I don't have the foggiest idea. Like I have mentioned before, I stopped thinking about what it is I say long ago. Ha! It just comes out and I just go with it. If one only knew he peace in that? Oh, well...............! Let's just say the Captain and I are friends and leave it at that for now.

Deckard;110482 wrote:
Common sense is sense/knowledge that is held in common. I suppose it could be compared to a piece of property held in common.


Like the Earth, for instance!

Deckard;110482 wrote:
This brings to mind an essay by Garrett Hardin called "The Tragedy of the Commons". The essay is about what happens to land that is held in common, how it is abused and wasted by the individuals who exploit it for their personal gain so that an unprotected commons eventually becomes a wasteland or garbage heap. So in a round about way it turns out to be a pretty good argument for private property.


Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo!

Deckard;110482 wrote:
Could the same thing happen to common sense? Can common knowledge be corrupted and exploited by various individuals for personal gain. Or is it impervious to such corruption?


What is corruption but the desire to skew that common sense? Call it a "sibling rivalry". It can be concluded that those who think they know more lay claim to this planet and want it for their own to rule and command it as they please. Ha! Greed is a desire of a deprived child who thinks all are deprived as he and prides himself on outwitting others so greedy. But they do do their damage, don't they? There will be an atonement for those who think such, I can assure you. What that will be will be in the hands of the Captain and of course all who are not so greedy that will aid in that comeuppance and will not realize their participation in that, but the perpetrators will and perhaps that is occurring as we speak? Hmmm? I wonder what crow tastes like? Ha!

Pardon me this kind of talk for it is really speculation on my part and I do not know for sure what that universal justice is. In the movie THE FLIM FLAM MAN, George C. Scott in the title role made the statement "...you can't cheat an honest man!" Perhaps that is more true than we realize and all are complicit to a degree for wanting more than they need.

Deckard;110482 wrote:
Perhaps we can find here an argument against giving dogs what is sacred and throwing ones pearls before swine.


Deckard, I've heard that before. Would you please relate what it means....as briefly as you can. What you think it means? Thanks a lot.

buffalobill90;110487 wrote:
There is no such thing as common sense; the term "conscience" is derived from the same archaic notion.


Hello buffalobill and welcome. William here or on occasion known as "Wild Bill" by some and "Mr. Bill" by close friends. Please, if you don't mind, what is it you think the conscience is. If you don't mind, no links. What do you think it is?

buffalobill90;110487 wrote:
It's the idea that everyone shares some kind of inherent knowledge.


Inherent knowledge? Now that is a difficult one to prove, huh? You think there is no such thing as common sense, I take it? I think we were just talking about you, ha! No offense, there are many who think as you. They call themselve "secular humanist" and I agree with some of what they say. The problem is we know little of what it is to be human except that we "err"; and we do a lot of that. The question is do we learn from our mistakes? Hmmm? Is the "divine" forgiving? God, let's hope so. I think he is or he would have ended "us" long ago, huh? Like when we started killing our unborn thinking it was our right to do such a thing. Damn! What a good father/Captain he must be. Dare I say he loves us? Yeah, I think I can say that. I don't think He can get along without us. Now as to the Mother, that would make for fascinating discussion for another thread. Huh? To bad there are few women aboard this ship. There input would be welcome, I think.

On a side note and please if anyone chooses to rubutt, please open another thread, but considering killing our unborn; over population is one of those erroneous reasons why we effort to justify it. That's BS. The Earth is in perfect balance and there is more than enough room for us all. We gather in clumps to survive. Once we come to our senses and use the knowledge we have collectively and commonly we will be able to spread out and live together all different, harmoniously. There are more than enough resources to sustain us once we stop applying value to rarity. What an insane notion that was.

buffalobill90;110487 wrote:
"Instinct" is not the same - instinct is a propensity to learn certain kinds of things, such as (for humans) language, social norms, bipedal movement etc.


Propensity: An inclination to "something" hmmm? Bent/bias/cast/disposition/leaning/partiality/penchant/predilection/predisposition/proclivity/proneness/tendency/trend/turn; Now which one is it you are using?

Animals have "instincts too, or so they say. Could it be that human instinct and "common sense" are one and the same and how we will one day communicate. Just as the animals now do? Or perhaps it is a form of "intuition"--briefly : In philosophy, the power of obtaining knowledge that is not or cannot be acquired either by inference or observation. Perhaps "common sense" relates to men only as we often refer intuition a speciality to women. Perhaps there is a balance in the two we have yet to recognize.

buffalobill90;110487 wrote:
We are not born with this knowledge, but we have evolved to pick it up very easily. In the past, the idea of common sense or common knowledge was often somewhat ethnocentric, not allowing for the differences in culture which the OP mentions.


Well put. But, (ha, there away's seems to be a but, sorry); what if all one acquires as to that knowledge is not easily, as you say, "picked up"? The work of genius always, it seems, falls into the wrong hands sooner or later. I have always maintained that which is common to us will come easily and without effort as you just said but their always seems to be a rat in woodwork somewhere who has the ways and the means to subvert it for their own purposes. After all scientist's have to eat too and many are for sale to the highest bidder and many bidders who do have the ways and means couldn't pour piss out of a boot. Sorry for the euphemism, but I think it appropriate.

William

---------- Post added 12-13-2009 at 12:46 PM ----------

salima;110830 wrote:

now that i think of it, why should any belief be termed a commonsense belief? you could say some ideas are knuckleheaded beliefs, and some are insane beliefs, some are naive, etc etc etc. is the idea of giving it this label and defining it as such making it a part of a formal logical process?


Hello Salima. You do have a way with words.Ha! It does have it's relative connotations as we effort to distinguish how individuals think. It can be confusing and deters any thought of a commonality in it all.

Oh, by the way, I like your new signature. How nice would it be if we exited like John Travolta did in the movie PHENOMENON. He said, "it's happening and just went to, what it seemed as, sleep.
Quinn phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 11:17 am
@William,
William;110940 wrote:
Hello Quinn and welcome. You bring up a subject that has rarely been discussed and thanks for doing so.



You are accurate in your assumption as it relates to the reality we are currently living in. It is not very common and there are reasons for that. To understand common sense one has to believe in a "mother ship" so to speak that records everything. A mother ship on a voyage that will last for an eternity dispensing with what is wrong to proceed in a right direction toward a perfection that will never be realize; it is the voyage that is important and we are all aboard that ship offering our own 2 cents to it's navigation.

Let's call that ship the USS UNIVERSE and it's Captain "God". Now those who do not believe this will never agree with a common sense, for they have their reasons to believe otherwise and rely on what they think they know as sense to be that of their own choosing with little regard to any notion of what others have known and experienced. That is why common sense is not prevailing as it should and perhaps it we will never understand it in all it entirety. I think it exists and it is very important.

The senses can become confused and this reality is evident of that fact. Of course we are still young and it is understandable why that is so.

Like I said it is a journey. An eternal one. You may argue if you wish. I choose not to. I like believing in that. It is so very comforting for me to think such.



Thank you Ken for bringing Moore's analysis to our attention. If you will forgive me I got dizzy reading it. It was a valiant effort on Moore's part to attempt it and for the most part he was correct but try to explain it to the average passenger on this ship to a degree that will be "in common" with all and you will find few who will be able to understand it. If you, yourself, have read it, then perhaps you will help in that if you would so all can understand.

You see that is the problem. "All" is a hard word to use and understand. Granted all do not think and experience the same, but there is, in all of us, that which we share that are in common. That which is true is what guides the "Mother Ship" and the mind is it's communication device and what serendipity is all about or a God consciousness that allows us to hear that which is true and in common with all that will enable us to realize we are a part of that God and that communication it has with all God's various and unique pieces. To explain that cannot be done on an individual basis so don't even try as Moore efforted to do.

As long as the mind is troubled, see list, this reality we are currently experiencing will continue on the slippery slope it is on toward a hell on Earth. You see that's how we learn; we only evolve when we are on the precipice of doom. Sad, we do not learn. But as I said, we are still young, stubborn and like to do things ourselves being the perfect individuals we are and were created as such.

You might ask what is "DOOM". Ha! That's is a matter to concern one's self with, isn't it. Now look at Doom's mirror image; "Mood". Hmm? Fascinating, huh! We do have our mood's don't we? To envision doom is a horrible mood to be in, and there are who believe such and are doing all that can to prepare for it. To think this ship can sink is nothing but folly based on a fear imposed by those who think they know it all. Unfortunately they are aboard this ship too. Do they have the Captain's ear; not hardly. That communication from the Captain to those aboard his ship is one way; it's the noise that keeps many from hearing. Like I said the senses can become confused and there is a lot of profit in that confusion or chaos as it were.

This is a "we" paradigm, not an "I" one as I have often noted and tried to explain since I came aboard this forum. Not easy, to say the least. There is only one "I" and we are a part of that "I". In other words, God is "we", but "we" are not He. Who we are gives life to that majestic Captain. We are His senses, tools and He will utilize them to insure His ship stays on course and once all are allowed to align with that which we have in common, we will come to our senses and they will be utilize in ways we can only imagine at this point. But that is what dreams are made of.

Now I have no idea of what dreams are made of exactly but I use it only for it's positive nature in the context that I used it. Like wishing upon a star and the like or somewhere over the rainbow. How grand that is if it could only be true? And I think it is in ways that cannot be explained, I am rewarded for that and for that I am eternally grateful. If all could only realize what those rewards are, you would want to share them too. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King". Why I said that, I don't have the foggiest idea. Like I have mentioned before, I stopped thinking about what it is I say long ago. Ha! It just comes out and I just go with it. If one only knew he peace in that? Oh, well...............! Let's just say the Captain and I are friends and leave it at that for now.



Like the Earth, for instance!



Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo!



What is corruption but the desire to skew that common sense? Call it a "sibling rivalry". It can be concluded that those who think they know more lay claim to this planet and want it for their own to rule and command it as they please. Ha! Greed is a desire of a deprived child who thinks all are deprived as he and prides himself on outwitting others so greedy. But they do do their damage, don't they? There will be an atonement for those who think such, I can assure you. What that will be will be in the hands of the Captain and of course all who are not so greedy that will aid in that comeuppance and will not realize their participation in that, but the perpetrators will and perhaps that is occurring as we speak? Hmmm? I wonder what crow tastes like? Ha!

Pardon me this kind of talk for it is really speculation on my part and I do not know for sure what that universal justice is. In the movie THE FLIM FLAM MAN, George C. Scott in the title role made the statement "...you can't cheat an honest man!" Perhaps that is more true than we realize and all are complicit to a degree for wanting more than they need.



Deckard, I've heard that before. Would you please relate what it means....as briefly as you can. What you think it means? Thanks a lot.



Hello buffalobill and welcome. William here or on occasion known as "Wild Bill" by some and "Mr. Bill" by close friends. Please, if you don't mind, what is it you think the conscience is. If you don't mind, no links. What do you think it is?



Inherent knowledge? Now that is a difficult one to prove, huh? You think there is no such thing as common sense, I take it? I think we were just talking about you, ha! No offense, there are many who think as you. They call themselve "secular humanist" and I agree with some of what they say. The problem is we know little of what it is to be human except that we "err"; and we do a lot of that. The question is do we learn from our mistakes? Hmmm? Is the "divine" forgiving? God, let's hope so. I think he is or he would have ended "us" long ago, huh? Like when we started killing our unborn thinking it was our right to do such a thing. Damn! What a good father/Captain he must be. Dare I say he loves us? Yeah, I think I can say that. I don't think He can get along without us. Now as to the Mother, that would make for fascinating discussion for another thread. Huh? To bad there are few women aboard this ship. There input would be welcome, I think.

On a side note and please if anyone chooses to rubutt, please open another thread, but considering killing our unborn; over population is one of those erroneous reasons why we effort to justify it. That's BS. The Earth is in perfect balance and there is more than enough room for us all. We gather in clumps to survive. Once we come to our senses and use the knowledge we have collectively and commonly we will be able to spread out and live together all different, harmoniously. There are more than enough resources to sustain us once we stop applying value to rarity. What an insane notion that was.



Propensity: An inclination to "something" hmmm? Bent/bias/cast/disposition/leaning/partiality/penchant/predilection/predisposition/proclivity/proneness/tendency/trend/turn; Now which one is it you are using?

Animals have "instincts too, or so they say. Could it be that human instinct and "common sense" are one and the same and how we will one day communicate. Just as the animals now do? Or perhaps it is a form of "intuition"--briefly : In philosophy, the power of obtaining knowledge that is not or cannot be acquired either by inference or observation. Perhaps "common sense" relates to men only as we often refer intuition a speciality to women. Perhaps there is a balance in the two we have yet to recognize.



Well put. But, (ha, there away's seems to be a but, sorry); what if all one acquires as to that knowledge is not easily, as you say, "picked up"? The work of genius always, it seems, falls into the wrong hands sooner or later. I have always maintained that which is common to us will come easily and without effort as you just said but their always seems to be a rat in woodwork somewhere who has the ways and the means to subvert it for their own purposes. After all scientist's have to eat too and many are for sale to the highest bidder and many bidders who do have the ways and means couldn't pour piss out of a boot. Sorry for the euphemism, but I think it appropriate.

William


Woah. That was a very analytical post. Really good job. I have a few things I wish to agree upon, in this large post. I have a few things I didn't understand. I also have a few things that I don't agree upon. "Could it be that human instinct and "common sense" are one and the same and how we will one day communicate. Just as the animals now do?"

Whenever I've gotten into this argument with friends at school, they always resort to instinct. I may be one and a million out of all the aspiring philosophers who posted on this page, but I don't believe in changing the meanings of modern words. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if the word, "Common Sense", was ever used to describe instinct. Yes, certain humans are born with certain fears. These fears: Heights, death, blood, spiders, (etc..) are indeed common amongst most people. I'm not sure if I can speak for everyone in the world, but most people are afraid of death. However, it's known as "Suicidal" to jump off of a bridge.

When someone's about to jump off of a bridge, what do people scream?

a) "ARE YOU CRAZY?! YOU'LL DIE!"

or

b) "DON'T JUMP OFF OF THE BRIDGE! IT'S COMMON SENSE!"

I'm gonna go with "a".



Quote:
You see that is the problem. "All" is a hard word to use and understand. Granted all do not think and experience the same, but there is, in all of us, that which we share that are in common. That which is true is what guides the "Mother Ship" and the mind is it's communication device and what serendipity is all about or a God consciousness that allows us to hear that which is true and in common with all that will enable us to realize we are a part of that God and that communication it has with all God's various and unique pieces. To explain that cannot be done on an individual basis so don't even try as Moore efforted to do.


Agreed. Their is at least SOMETHING which all humans share. I understand this completely, as should everyone else; However, what is common in all of us is less likely to be "Common Sense." What is common sense to people in Africa who usually don't where shoes, is not common in America, to people who usually do. It's described in todays society as common sense to be able to tie your own shoe, where I live. However, that may not be the case somewhere else in the world.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 11:50 am
@Quinn phil,
I had once heard someone say, that "Common-sense is not common at all".
That was a perpective, which is worth pondering.
Quinn phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 12:51 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades;110947 wrote:
I had once heard someone say, that "Common-sense is not common at all".
That was a perpective, which is worth pondering.


Yup, that's my perspective exactly.
William
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 01:35 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn;110943 wrote:
Woah. That was a very analytical post. Really good job. I have a few things I wish to agree upon, in this large post. I have a few things I didn't understand. I also have a few things that I don't agree upon. "Could it be that human instinct and "common sense" are one and the same and how we will one day communicate. Just as the animals now do?"

Whenever I've gotten into this argument with friends at school, they always resort to instinct. I may be one and a million out of all the aspiring philosophers who posted on this page, but I don't believe in changing the meanings of modern words. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if the word, "Common Sense", was ever used to describe instinct. Yes, certain humans are born with certain fears. These fears: Heights, death, blood, spiders, (etc..) are indeed common amongst most people. I'm not sure if I can speak for everyone in the world, but most people are afraid of death. However, it's known as "Suicidal" to jump off of a bridge.When someone's about to jump off of a bridge, what do people scream? a) "ARE YOU CRAZY?! YOU'LL DIE!"or b) "DON'T JUMP OFF OF THE BRIDGE! IT'S COMMON SENSE!"

I'm gonna go with "a".


Thanks for your response Quinn and perhaps I should "Whoa" a little; Wow would have made me feel better though, ha! As far as what you disagree with......"Could it be that human instinct and "common sense" are one and the same and how we will one day communicate. Just as the animals now do?", let me say this; Granted how I am using instinct here is a bit more complicated when we are talking about humans. As far as animals it can be assumed they have reach their worth; we have not. We are just beginning. Much more complicated to be sure, but it is unreasonable to think we are any different. There is a harmony to all species that we just can't seem to put our finger on, but it is observable. Take the beaver for instance. They have reached the epitome of their existence and when they are no longer needed they will become extinct or what we think is extinct-not observable or needed. A natural occurrence. Yet they do serve a purpose and we can learn from the beaver and we have to some degree. We learn from that nature when we observe it and we are a part of that. A complicated part, but still a part; are we not?

It depends on how much attention we issue in that regard. Instinct is just 'doing' without thinking about it. Now I know that is hard to believe and understand. I am doing it now as I write/type these words and please forgive my inaccuracies, but I do. What I concentrate on the most is the words I use but even that is becoming easier as I go along. Call it the mind "at ease" if you will. The mind is a beautiful thing if we could just leave it alone and let it do it's thing and that is INSTINCT, human instinct. Worry, stress, guilt, fear really blow us away and deter it from doing so.

Jumping off a bridge is an act of desperation and has nothing to do with instinct, yet there are those occasions in which animals do "beach themselves" such as whales and dolphins have been known to do. That is indeed a mystery. It is also reasonable to assume that a person who does resort to such an end, that in and of themselves, are not wholly responsible for what they do and others are complicit in their actions. A definite illustration of lack of common sense. I didn't say we don't have it, I just said we don't understand all it's implications yet or inferred as much. But we do have it. There is no proof or reason to assume we are any different. At least that I know of anyway.

Quinn;110943 wrote:
Agreed. Their is at least SOMETHING which all humans share. I understand this completely, as should everyone else; However, what is common in all of us is less likely to be "Common Sense." What is common sense to people in Africa who usually don't where shoes, is not common in America, to people who usually do. It's described in todays society as common sense to be able to tie your own shoe, where I live. However, that may not be the case somewhere else in the world.


Thanks for trying to simplify it but I'm sure it is more difficult than one might think. The link that was provide earlier is an indication of that. When we compare ourselves to others we lose a bit of ourselves in that process. Why would anyone do that, you might say? If a person in Africa does not wear shoes does that mean he is lesser than we and can not have utility? No, I think not. Condescension is alive and well in this reality and it sucks and always has.

Please, I am not addressing you personally but it is so rampant along with "ethnic purity" it makes me angry.

Thanks again for your response. i hope this help a little and the "whoa" you mentioned. :a-ok:

William
0 Replies
 
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:10 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn;110960 wrote:
Yup, that's my perspective exactly.


What does it mean?
0 Replies
 
Quinn phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:54 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quote:
Thanks for trying to simplify it but I'm sure it is more difficult than one might think. The link that was provide earlier is an indication of that. When we compare ourselves to others we lose a bit of ourselves in that process. Why would anyone do that, you might say? If a person in Africa does not wear shoes does that mean he is lesser than we and can not have utility? No, I think not. Condescension is alive and well in this reality and it sucks and always has.


You're right, but I think you misunderstood a bit. I wasn't attempting to imply that humans in Africa were any lesser than I am. I believe that we should all be born into equality, simply because I'm a person who wants to give everyone a chance, no matter who their parents were and where they lived. However, this is not the case. What I was trying to say was that when i go to school in the morning, I have shoes on. If I were to not have any shoes on in the morning, one might say, "Dude, it's common sense to wear shoes to school." Now, if a kid in Africa went to school with no shoes, he would receive no such remark. I was only trying to go back to my case that Common knowledge differs upon where you live, and how you live. Thus, common sense couldn't be common. I understand your point of view though, this topic is kind of a perspective thing. But, I think it has some kind of "trueness" behind it.


Quote:
It depends on how much attention we issue in that regard. Instinct is just 'doing' without thinking about it. Now I know that is hard to believe and understand. I am doing it now as I write/type these words and please forgive my inaccuracies, but I do. What I concentrate on the most is the words I use but even that is becoming easier as I go along. Call it the mind "at ease" if you will. The mind is a beautiful thing if we could just leave it alone and let it do it's thing and that is INSTINCT, human instinct. Worry, stress, guilt, fear really blow us away and deter it from doing so.

Jumping off a bridge is an act of desperation and has nothing to do with instinct, yet there are those occasions in which animals do "beach themselves" such as whales and dolphins have been known to do. That is indeed a mystery. It is also reasonable to assume that a person who does resort to such an end, that in and of themselves, are not wholly responsible for what they do and others are complicit in their actions. A definite illustration of lack of common sense. I didn't say we don't have it, I just said we don't understand all it's implications yet or inferred as much. But we do have it. There is no proof or reason to assume we are any different. At least that I know of anyway.


Well said. Proof and reason to believe that we are any different is right before our eyes. Between you and I, have you noticed a different tone of words? You're more analytical, getting all of your thoughts down. I try and pick and choose the most persuading and "true" remarks I can find. Look at you and your father. He's your own flesh and blood, yet you have differences. Common sense. Is common sense to your best friend common sense to you? What about to the hobo down the street? What about all the people in Mental Institutes? Do you share whatever "Common Sense" is, with them?
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 03:50 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn, you are using the term "common sense" in the context most all do. I am speaking of a collective consciousness that all can tune in with. Common sense in the way you are using it simple means are you crazy for doing as you are doing with little regard as to "why" they are doing it. Such as the analogy you used with the shoes. Any one making such a comment to one in this country who appears at a function where everyone is wearing shoes and is customary to do so should raise a red flag as something terribly wrong! To issue "Hey Dude..............." would not only be rude but would also create a cruel laughter at the person if they were indeed that unfortunate. What should be done is to remedy the reason why they don't have shoes.

Poverty in life is like a pariah, no one wants to see it and when they do, they rationalize it and excuse it in such ways that relieve them of any culpability as they exclaim "poor soul"! We build bridges over ghettos and highways around them so we do not have to witness all that goes one there. Out of sight out of mind.

"You're more analytical, getting all of your thoughts down. I try and pick and choose the most persuading and "true" remarks I can find. Look at you and your father. He's your own flesh and blood, yet you have differences. Common sense. Is common sense to your best friend common sense to you? What about to the hobo down the street? What about all the people in Mental Institutes? Do you share whatever "Common Sense" is, with them"?

I don't know about analytical, perhaps "deductive" would be more appropriate and thank you. You are still missing the point, though. You are using scenarios that indicate a lack of common sense. This reality does not have a clue as to what it means. I am only trying to give it life and validity from my ability to deduce by observing it from a distant perspective. Up close it is virtually impossible.

Like my Dad and I, we did have more in common than we both realized because we were both, then, communicating from the "I" perspective and we did until he died 25 years ago. Much of my insight was developed after that but I use that to learn from and why we disagreed on those occasions we did disagree. As to the hopo, it is much the same as the shoeless individual. There are reasons for such spectacles and we all have something to do with that.

Like I mentioned we are still young and we have far to go before we realize how much we do all have in common and it does matter. Rationalism is our greatest fault and understandably so for no one likes to be held accountable for the part they play in the reality as it is today and will readily point a finger at those who they think are.

Quinn there is a common sense out there, it's just we don't recognize it for we are too interested in the "I" than we are the "we". Call it a selfishness if you will. Most only give when there are advantages to be gain and only then. When if the truth were known to give without expectation, all would be surprised at the rewards that would come their way. If all were so giving, God what a world this would be. We would then take care of each other in ways that would be unimaginable. You want to see miracles? Give it a shot.

Thanks for your response.
William
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 09:56 pm
@Quinn phil,
common sense is a practical application of knowledge both experiential and consumed to one's life conditions (environment physically as well as mental meanderings).

william, i think if we all had what you are talking about, we wouldnt need any common sense! i think you guys are talking about apples and oranges.

off topic actually, but i am mentioning this because it had been stumbled upon in a couple posts. i just read an article on the human genome project in asia, and it says the findings are pointing to the fact that human life started in africa, then went to india, and from there to japan and china...i love that project, it is going to prove once and for all that there is only one human race and we are all sisters and brothers.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 10:00 pm
@salima,
salima;111080 wrote:
we are all sisters and brothers.


Very distantly related. And real sisters and brothers sometimes fight like hell!
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 10:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;111081 wrote:
Very distantly related. And real sisters and brothers sometimes fight like hell!


unfortunately true. started off with cain and abel. adam and eve probably fought like hell too and didnt understand each other. we've come a long way and seem to be getting nowhere.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 10:13 pm
@salima,
salima;111085 wrote:
unfortunately true. started off with cain and abel. adam and eve probably fought like hell too and didnt understand each other. we've come a long way and seem to be getting nowhere.


So then, if we are all "brothers and sisters' (but you know, we aren't really) what then?
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 10:25 pm
@Quinn phil,
if the adam and eve story is not taken literal it can serve to illustrate the concept that the human race began from a single root species. though even that is sometimes threatened by new discoveries. after all, even if it all started in africe doesnt mean it was from a single species. but it really doesnt make any difference as to the rules on how to treat each other should be formed.
what I was referring to was the myths perpetuated that enforce the belief that some segments of humanity are inherently better or superior over others, which I hope the genome project will end.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 10:31 pm
@salima,
salima;111092 wrote:
if the adam and eve story is not taken literal it can serve to illustrate the concept that the human race began from a single root species. though even that is sometimes threatened by new discoveries. after all, even if it all started in africe doesnt mean it was from a single species. but it really doesnt make any difference as to the rules on how to treat each other should be formed.
what I was referring to was the myths perpetuated that enforce the belief that some segments of humanity are inherently better or superior over others, which I hope the genome project will end.


How does it follow from the fact that we all have some common ancestors, that there are no differences among people in intelligence, or skill, or in any other way? Even in the case of brothers or sisters there is often a disparity in abilities and capacities. Why shouldn't there be the same disparity among far more distant relations?
 

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