In your view, why do people want to believe in a God?

Interesting, because I thought I just read that you say god doesn't intervene. So god intervenes just not always? Selective intervention? He helps you but ignores children starving in third world countries?



So what is the criteria that you are using to know it is not your imagination or self creation? Would you share what measurement you are using?



Sounds like superstition. You did something, and something happened and you accounted the result as being gods work.



What else do I have to go off of? I once passed a man who claimed my mom broke his nose off in Egypt. Am I suppose to take his word for such an act because he actually believed it was true?

Krumple,

It's pretty clear due to the sarcastic tone of your posts that you're not really interested in having an objective discussion.

I believe that God exists and you don't.

Fine by me. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

--IntoTheLight--

They want to create something to blame their problems

Its not sarcasm its asking relevant questions. It appears you expected an easy ride on your proposed view of the god you are so certain of. You insist on not answering questions and see them as some kind of personal attack. The pulpit is the place for you where the like minded just mumble appreciation.

I have spiritual beliefs that have no reason in reality but I dont display them as flags of certainty. If you have beliefs, be humble enough to debate their sincerity.

Before this topic get sidetracked onto another topic, please let me clarify that the purpose of this topic is NOT about debating whether or not God or some supreme beings exist.

The focus is on the people - WHY it is in many people's nature to seek out God or a supreme being.

What is the need, the drive, or desire that lead people to do so?

For instance,

when people are hungry, they look for food;
when people are thirsty, they look for water.

These are universal needs in all human.

But what about when people go looking for God or supreme beings?
What is the source of the need?

Why are there people who DON'T have the need to look for God or supreme beings?
But why are there people who DO have the need to look for God or supreme beings?

Once again, the focus is on the people.

There is a third,those who see the possibility but refuse to accept the necessity or invent for illogical reasons. I cant imagine anyone , even the devout atheist, who would not find it comforting to realise a deeper meaning to life than they imagined.

None of my responses were intended sarcasm or to mock your belief in any way. The thing that is happening here is, that you seem to have something that I do not. I am trying to figure out just what you have and why I don't have it. Is there something wrong with me, that I don't have this thing you are talking about? How come I never get there? If you have a chunk of information that I could use, I request it. That is why I have bombarded you with questioning. If you would rather not answer, that is your choice but it does nothing to back up your statements.

Fair enough. I apologize to you for the misinterpretation.



You could have it to, if you wanted it. I was a atheist for 10 years and spent a lot of time on message forums such as this one asking the same questions and making many of the same arguments that you have made. In a way, it's kind of funny to me to be on the other side of the equation now. I have often laughed at God's sense of humor and irony.

In any case, I believe you because I was looking for the same thing. It took me seven years of serious online debating and theology discussions to realize it, however. And even then, it didn't happen overnight.



There's nothing inherently wrong with you. I'm not qualified to judge you, but I can tell you what was wrong with me when I was in the position you are in now:

I wanted a very precise answer that was concrete in nature and could be easily demonstrated.

Reminds me of a passage from the book, Zorba The Greek by Nikos Kazantzikas:

Zorba: "Why do the young die? Why does anybody die? Tell me!"

Scholar: "I don't know."

Zorba: "What's the use of all your da_mn books? If they don't tell you that, what the hell do they tell you?"

Scholar: "They tell me of the agony of young men who can't answer questions like yours."

Just about every theist I got into with (religious extremists excepted) told me virtually the same thing: there is no 'proof' - having a relationship with God has to be based on faith and humility.

I found that very frustrating and empty because I concieved of myself (eg. my intellect, experiences, education, self-determination) as infinitely superior to any "made-up god that some delusional nut had" - my words at the time.

I was guilty of 'contempt prior to investigation'. However, there are certain things in my life that I quickly realized I was powerless over. If I had the power to solve all my problems myself - I would've done so a long time ago.
But I couldn't.

After a long, long time I finally made an Agnostic prayer, something like this: "God, if there is a god, help me with this problem because I can't do anything about it myself. If you are willing to help me, I will do my best to do your will in all things. I make myself your servant. Please help me."

The thing is: I genuinely meant it all in complete humility and submission. I was about two days away from committing suicide; I have attempted suicide three times. I needed help and there was nobody to turn to, so I turned to God - if there was a god.

In that moment, I felt God's presence in my life for the first time. I don't mean that figuratively - I literally felt emcompassed by a external presence
that affected me physically, emotionally, intellectually, and, for the first time, spiritually. My clumsy summary doesn't do it justice - it was beyond anything I've ever experience in my life. I've done a lot of drugs and it was nothing like that. It was a complete body and mind experience that transcended anything else I've ever experienced in my life. I really can't adequately describe it to you.

It was a spiritual awakening and many things were revealed to me in an instant. And I knew that God had always been with me and always would be with me. I was surrounded by a feeling of complete love, compassion, hope, and strength. None of it came from me. It was like someone flicked a switch and turned on a powerful light that illuminated all of the darkness inside me.

A line from the movie Ben Hur comes to mind: "There are many paths to God... I hope yours will not be too difficult."

Everyone experiences God differently and it doesn't happen the same way for all people. I have been told by many long-term theists that former Atheists often have spectacular experiences because they come to God in one second, whereas, many theists come to know God gradually over the course of years, starting with belief early in life.

I'm not suggesting that my experiences will be duplicated for anyone else, but I have met other former Atheists who've reported the same kind of instant envelopment I had.



Certainly: you have to really be humble and really want it bad enough. You have to be willing to believe on faith that God is capable of helping you and being part of your life. That is not an easy thing to do. I searched for God for nearly 20 years, but what I realized later is that I always wanted God on my terms. I wanted God to fix my problems, but I didn't want to submit to God.

I think the key to it all is complete humility and submission and patience.

If anyone has those, they can know God.

Reguarding submission, it is submission to the care of God; not the control of God. You will never lose your free will.

Be careful what you wish for, though: if experience God, a lot of things in your life will change and habits & ideas that have been with you for years may suddenly become unappealing to you. A whole new way of life will emerge and there will be many changes, some of which you may not like initially. You may not find happiness, but you will find serenity.

Remember this, also: you can conceptualize God in any way you choose. You do not have to limit yourself to the traditional ideas handed down by any religion, cult, sect, or philosophy. The point of this is to have a God that you can work with on your own. God is bigger than any human conceptualization.



Thank you for the clarification. -- I'll be posting a new thread on this subject later and I'll message you when I post it.

If you have any questions, I may not be able to answer them, but please feel free to ask.

--IntoTheLight--

From my understanding of reality, it is only possible in the sense that anything is possible, which is an absolute skepticism that I wish not to posit for practical and rational purposes. Such a position is redundant.

I'm not so sure that I would find it comforting to realize a transcendent purpose to existence and life. The idea that I am being controlled or predetermined by another being's will would be somewhat unpleasant to me. I prefer to write my own novel.

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 06:51 PM ----------



I believe that some traditions hold Buddha to be a deity. I reject the idea of nirvana. Nirvana is the will to nothingness; the ascetic ideal. It finds existence to be so hard that it devalues it altogether. It's a way of giving up the battle and deluding yourself to believe that you've won.



Now that sounds pessimistic.

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 06:58 PM ----------



All of this is very true, but these beliefs are expressions of passive nihilism. This passive nihilism is used to ward off active nihilism, but what most believers do not realize is that it is precisely this passive nihilism that leads to active nihilism in the first place.

You don't really need to apologize. My style of debate is not quite orthodox and given black and white letters lack inflections it is easy to get the message mixed up.



This is what I am skeptical about. Want implies an additive on my part. Wanting something to be is different than it actually being. So is this to imply that I must first "do" something to fulfill the want?



I do the same thing but not with spiritual or religious stuff. Every now and then I get a recap memory of something silly I did and almost relive the embarrassment until I remind myself that probably no one else remembers it so why let it bother me? I think change is something constant with our minds so there will always be moments like switching sides to a topic.



Well I'm not looking for a quick fix. I just don't get why it seems to be so convoluted.



The answer doesn't necessarily have to be concrete or precise just consistent. It seems strange to me to have this brain that operates in such a way to exist in this world yet I am requested to abandon those behaviors in order to accept the making of this brain. Sounds like to me requesting a car to bake a cake instead of transport a passenger.

OPINION, MERELY MY OPINION
We are structured for God. We are mythological animals. Jungian Archetypes. Check it out, both atheists and theist. I think to call religion nothing but a lie is a short-cut to understanding its real fascination for people who were geniuses, whose art was inspired by "God" or the mystical. Let's say "God" isn't supernatural at all but just a feeling. Still, if this feeling is good enough, this "God" is worth studying. Or is Doubt our God? Do we enjoy what might be shallowness and ignorance for the pleasure it allows us in mocking what we have not carefully investigated? No doubt there are many frauds, many salesmen. But can we write off the martyrs and mystics so easily? Did anyone ever believe in virgins giving birth or does that go back to Egypt? Myth is not random. There are repeating themes. The structure of our human mind is revealed in myth. Etc. Give peace a chance.

Scrutiny for many of us is a necessity of truth. It does not follow we don't see the need or its importance. Do I envy the simplicity of certain believers certainty? not really. Why should I deny my urge to examine or ignore the obvious falsities of belief? Examination may lead me to a logical and far stronger belief. The truth will be far more uplifting and mystical than any man made faith, that fails investigation.

For me, God is not a controller, but is a Force out there - and within - that I want to get in harmony with. I would like to merge with it, and acquire its Love, and its capacity to give love. God is a healing force, and whenever I have the slightest ailment or discomfort I pray to this person, or personal force, and it heals me. Isn't that alone enough reason as to why I would want to believe in this God? Sure it is !

God is the Creativity principle, and the Love principle (and beauty, truth, and goodness.) Goodness includes all the other values: integrity, harmony, liberty, community, purity of heart, diversity-within-unity, serendipity, authenticity, spontaneity, etc., etc. So let us one and all merge with Goodness. If we do, what a wonderful world it will be!

Let's say that maybe there is a meta-ideal as one of our instincts. Maybe this meta-ideal has certain ideals attached to it. The meta-ideal is the energy behind the contingent ideal-of-the-moment. The meta-ideal would be the force that drives culture. One person prides themselves on being rigorous, seeks a more provable truth. Another person prides themselves on creativity. Do the scientist and the artist have different contingent ideas? It seems so. But is there a meta-ideal behind both of their contingent ideals? Are we programmed to "incarnate" an ideal self? Is this ideal self determined largely by our experience? As children do we find certain ideals more congenial, put our chips behind those cards? As we get older it seems as thought we edit the self-ideal, as we discover new possibilities, new conceptions of virtue.