What is faith?

@richard mcnair,

richard_mcnair;138025 wrote:

This is a question that has been on my mind recently. I think many people would define it as accepting religious doctrines and ideas unquestioningly from some authority, but I think this is a caricature. What did Jesus mean when he said 'O ye of little faith'?

What is your definition of 'faith'?

Faith is a mistake, unless it is in love, in a woman, or in humanity... No one ever gets nothing better out of no one without a littlle faith thrown in first...

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@richard mcnair,

'Faith' is roughly synonymous with 'trust', and in this sense, it is not necessarily to be equated with belief in the truth of a given set of propositions. Even in this sense, though, it can be contentious, when it takes the form of trust in someone, rather than something (faith or trust in the predictability of the processes of the material world, for instance, is not usually seen as contentious, more as common sense), and when the 'someone' in question is not another human being (whence the atheists' jibe about 'imaginary friends'). Thus, one might have faith in 'society' (what does that mean?), or 'the unconscious mind', or a group of people, or in oneself (again, what does that mean?), or in 'God' (same question again), or indeed, in fairies or angels, or some other sort of invisible friends.

I guess Jesus was rebuking the likes of me, who have very little faith in what cannot be seen and touched. (And what little faith I have now comes mostly from having seen and touched Him in a dream, which is kind of cheating!)

Faith or trust should be earned, and it's certainly not obvious how God or Jesus or any other would-be invisible friend could earn one's trust, especially as it is hard even to test one's faith in a being whose very existence is highly questionable.

I expect that that is where the question of faith in given sets of religious propositions comes in, because, even in order to have 'faith' (in the sense of trust) in Jesus, or God, or Whoever, one has to have 'faith' (in the sense of belief) in propositions asserting the existence of those beings, and this can be difficult or downright impossible because of e.g. (i) internal conflict between the propositions in the set, (ii) conflict between the propositions and other propositions already well-attested on the basis of common sense or scientific observation and reasoning, (iii) dubious authorship or authority, (iv) conflict with other, similar sets of religious propositions seemingly having equal a priori claims to authority, (v) sheer incomprehensibility, (vi) irrational demands for 'faith' as if mere verbal assent without any rational grounds constituted some kind of virtue, instead of constituting authoritarian insanity, as it does.

However, one can have obscure intimations of the existence of beings of a personal nature who are not other human beings (including deeper or at least unfamiliar aspects of one's own self), and one can start there, with obscure and puzzling experiences of 'imaginary' friends (and 'imaginary' enemies!), and try to make sense of these experiences, perhaps using previously puzzling propositions in religious texts, and in turn using one's own puzzling experiences to make partial sense of those puzzling propositions in books other people have written, and so on, in an endless iterative process (spiralling in towards madness, says the atheist).

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@richard mcnair,

richard_mcnair;138025 wrote:

This is a question that has been on my mind recently. I think many people would define it as accepting religious doctrines and ideas unquestioningly from some authority, but I think this is a caricature. What did Jesus mean when he said 'O ye of little faith'?

What is your definition of 'faith'?

Like most words in English, the word "faith" has more than one meaning. Since you are interested in the Bible, first let us look at what it says there:

Hebrews 11:1

Quote:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We can compare this with the supposed words of Jesus in Matthew 6:

Quote:

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

The same basic story, again with Jesus speaking, is also in Luke 12:

Quote:

22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.

23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.

24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Jesus seems to be saying, just believe that everything will be fine, without bothering with the evidence. So it does not appear to be a caricature at all to suggest that Jesus meant that people should believe unquestioningly.

Here is the listing for "faith" from one ordinary dictionary:

Quote:

faith
n.

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.

Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

A set of principles or beliefs.

Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com

As for which is being used, context can often tell us. For example, if one says that you should look for evidence, and someone replies that that is not necessary and that you should have faith, they appear to be using definition 2 ("Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.").

In the case of justified beliefs, believing them is not "faith" by definition 2 ("Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence"). Of course, if strongly held, it would be "faith" by definition 1 ("Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing"), because every strongly held belief is "faith" by that definition.

Very often, people slip back and forth between these things in discussions of "faith", which is equivocation.

Typically, what philosophers object to when they object to "faith" is definition 2, which is believing something without evidence. That is something that is quite different from believing something with evidence. See:

The Ethics Of Belief

Basically, when someone says that one should have faith (in sense 2), that person is advocating belief in something for which they have no evidence. There is, however, something rather ironic about those who make such claims:

Quote:

If one simply chooses, without regard to reason and evidence, why does one choose what one chooses? Why not choose the opposite? Or in matters of religion, if one chooses to be a Muslim, rather than a Christian or some other alternative, by faith, rather than with evidence, why choose those beliefs rather than any others? To see the need for evidence in matters of religion, one need only consider that the various religions all contradict each other, and, therefore, they cannot all be true. And why choose one religion rather than another? When a believer is attempting to convert others, what can be said to someone who claims faith in another religion? The believer can say that only his or her faith is faith in something true, but that is no evidence at all, and the prospective convert can make the same claim about his or her own religion. The religionist who advocates faith is, therefore, in a rather interesting position-he or she must also advocate rejecting faith. The reason for this is clear from the above remarks-one must reject all conflicting faiths if one is to embrace a particular faith. This may be obscured by the fact that people are often inconsistent (and consequently they are necessarily wrong no matter what the truth might be), but it does not alter the fact that, for example, it is impossible to fully embrace both Catholicism and Buddhism, or even Catholicism and Lutheranism. Anyone who is acquainted with the doctrines of each of these religions will be able to come up with examples of how the doctrine of each conflicts with that of the others. And, indeed, all different religions have conflicting doctrines, for, after all, if their doctrines were all the same, then they would not be different religions.

burger-book

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@richard mcnair,

richard_mcnair;138025 wrote:

This is a question that has been on my mind recently. I think many people would define it as accepting religious doctrines and ideas unquestioningly from some authority, but I think this is a caricature. What did Jesus mean when he said 'O ye of little faith'?

What is your definition of 'faith'?

Faith is acceptance,
acceptance is trust,
trust is belief
belief is everything.
Disbelief is a nothing.
Nothing is faithless, an unacceptance, a mistrust, a disbelief.
And because nothing does not exist.
Nothing does not. Dose nought.
Just because you do not do something or something is not done does not make it exist.
But just because something is thought, faithed, accepted, trusted, believed does the thought, faith, acceptance, trust, belief make it exist?
Yes because it is not a nothing, it is a something.
Can nothing be thought?
No because it cannot be anything.
Is everything thought?
No everything is something.
Thought is not everything, just part of everything
Does thought end? become a nothing? no because it at least was a something and because it has, is, will be means it can never be not.
Does nought do? just because nought is done?
Everything does exist.
Because nothing is done, nothing has, is, will be anything?
No because it was never, is never, will never be.
It is a nothing it does not exist.
Nothing cannot be anything.
If anything can it is not a nothing.
Everything has can and will be everything.
Everything is faith, is acceptance, is trust, is belief.
Which means anything and everything has, does, can and will exist as long as you have faith it has, does, can and will exist.
'O ye of little faith' Oh ye of little existence.

Have faith you will exist a whole lot better.

Can you have more faith?
Yes if you accept, trust and believe in more.
Does this make me more real?
Does this make the more more?
What is more when everything is real?
What is real when everything is more?
What is real when everything is faith?
What is faith when everything is real?
Everything exists if it is anything.
Anything exists if it is everything.
An everything?
No.
Everything is just everything.
Just waiting to be anything.
Have faith,
be anything and be everything.
Go on i dare you.

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@sometime sun,

The answer just given by sometime sun reminds me of another, similar answer I'm inclined to give, which is that faith is whatever makes you the person you are. ("We are such stuff as dreams are made on.")

Another, related answer is that faith is that of which you are 'certain': not in the crude sense that you believe it to be literally and absolutely impossible for what you believe to be true to be really false (although, sadly, so many 'believers' are exactly as crude as that), but in the slippier sense that the discovery of the falsehood of what you believed to be true would make you a different person (which the aforementioned 'believers' very much do not want to be).

However, both these answers are complicated by the fact that most of the "stuff" of which we and our dreams are made is unconscious, and it does not translate neatly, without effort, or without painful struggle, into neat and tidy sets of well-defined and well-argued propositions.

Another possibly related answer: faith is being, misconstrued (or else reconstructed, laboriously, incompletely, and imperfectly) as knowing.

Be that as it may, faith takes us into the realm of personal identity; and what is that, pray, and how may it be discovered or changed?

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@Twirlip,

Twirlip;138040 wrote:

Be that as it may, faith takes us into the realm of personal identity; and what is that, pray, and how may it be discovered or changed?

Get down on your knees dig and pray.
Find the light so you can show the way.

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@richard mcnair,

I will add something from a Buddhist viewpoint. First, faith is indispensable in Buddhism. It is called 'Sraddha' or 'Saddha' and it means, 'to place one's heart upon'.

To embark on the Buddhist way of life requires faith in the Buddha, the Dharma (law) and Sangha (fellowship of practitioners). The sense of the word however is not at all like 'blind faith' in the sense used in the Semitic faiths, but confidence that the teaching can be applied and the results experienced in this very life.

Buddhism places a lot of emphasis on wisdom and experiential learning. It consists of principles and practices which can be applied and learned from. Accordingly, the Buddhist attitude is one of open-minded skepticism. A very famous quote from the Buddha's 'Sermon to the Kalama People' exemplifies this attitude:

Quote:

Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" - then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' - then you should enter & remain in them.

Source

I also have a view on the question from a philosophical perspective and also from my viewpoint as a 'cultural Christian'. Suffice it to say that I strongly disagree with the depiction of faith as 'belief in propositions for which you have no evidence'. This is the typical atheist view, but generally atheists have no experience of spirituality and are never likely to, as they are convinced it is all nonsense in the first place.

I don't know where to start with criticizing this attitude, but I think I will start with the claim that the world does not actually make sense, or add up. We have a very strong sense that the world of ordinary perception in which we move about is 'reality' but in fact, I question that. I think it is actually the product of a lot of conditioned nuerological activity that gives it a sense of reality and solidity that it doesn't really possess. Within it, specific claims about specific objects make a lot of sense, in other words, 'are propositions for which there is evidence'. But if you stand back and survey the whole panorama of life, it is possible to come to the realisation that in very important ways, it is not nearly so real as the average person believes it to be. There are very many arguments for this, which shall be considered in due course.

I should also state, however, that the Dawkins-style argument for atheism relies on a very specific conception (or I would argue misconception) of what 'God' actually might be, arising from the historical circumstances of the current worldview, which might be summarized as 'protestant atheism'. We shall see how that develops.

---------- Post added 03-10-2010 at 04:18 PM ----------

I will add to that, that the quote from the Sermon on the Mount, which was given above, was addressed by Jesus, to those listening, in which he said, if you follow me, and don't worry about any other stuff, like how your career is going, and what you own, and who you think you are, and the rest of it, everything will be just fine.

Now I am not a churchgoer, I don't read the Bible, and I don't call myself a Christian. Nevertheless, I believe that this sermon is true, and that understanding it is a matter of interpreting why it was said, and what should be done in response. I certainly don't think it is just nonsense, and am prepared to defend that belief, if necessary.

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@richard mcnair,

Faith is closer to trust or hope than to belief or knowledge.
Jesus emphasized love over laws and inner spirituality over external piety. True faith manifests itself in action in this world.

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@richard mcnair,

that is completely true, it is a matter of walking the walk and learning to experience the world in a completely new way. At the end of the day faith is practical, not propositional, it is learning to be a different way. Sitting back and trying to figure out how it all should work out won't do it.

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@richard mcnair,

If we see people in trouble we can always justify not helping them; but to help them requires a leap of faith, so it is not done with thought, or reason, but in spite of thought and reason... The bonds that hold humanity together are emotional, and not rational...Reason sees only the self no matter where it is turned... What is reasonable is always reasonable from a certain perspective, and while that perspective is usually forgotten, it should never be...

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@richard mcnair,

something else to consider is the way faith has been defined and organised by the Christian church. In the Protestant religion, in particular, the emphasis is on the idea that 'you are saved by faith alone' and any effort you make on your own behalf is doomed to fail because of your sinful nature. This goes right back to Paul. I think this is regrettable religious doctrine and deserves many of the criticisms that it receives. I have been reading an account of the debate between Luther and Erasmus, where Luther insisted on the primacy of salvation by faith alone and condemned most of the ideas of Erasmus and the humanists. In my view, much of the atheism of the Western world grew out of a reaction against Lutheranism. Hence 'protestant atheism'.

The perspective provided by comparative religion shows that religious faith encompasses a broad spectrum of attitudes. It is the definition given in recent Western history that most people react against and characterise as 'belief in propositions for which there is no evidence'.

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@richard mcnair,

This is a question that has been on my mind recently. I think many people would define it as accepting religious doctrines and ideas unquestioningly from some authority, but I think this is a caricature. What did Jesus mean when he said 'O ye of little faith'?
Jesus never said that. the person in the dark ages that wrote the bible said that in order to get people to accept religion blindly.

What is your definition of 'faith'?
Misguided beliefs.Nothing should be based on faith. Everything should be proven by testing repeatedly and always and continually challenged.

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@richard mcnair,

richard_mcnair;138025 wrote:

This is a question that has been on my mind recently. I think many people would define it as accepting religious doctrines and ideas unquestioningly from some authority, but I think this is a caricature. What did Jesus mean when he said 'O ye of little faith'?

What is your definition of 'faith'?

Many people's experience is that faith is knowing with absolute inner certainty that you can accomplish something. Christ's best known example of faith was when he demonstrated that, by having perfect faith that He could walk on water, He was able to walk on the water. There have been many accomplishments that could not have been done if the person or people doing them did not have faith that they could.

I believe that the key to this is faith that, with the help of God or Allah or the Divine Essence (different names for the same, unknowable First Cause), one can accomplish something, but you can decide that for yourself. Some say, and I tend to agree, that the real power of faith comes when one is grateful to God for giving one what is needed to serve Him before acting.

For a small example, when I was memorizing lines for my most recent theater roll, I had a lot of lines to learn and very little time. I decided that I was able to learn those lines even though I only planned to focus on the task for 15 minutes at a time 4 or 5 times a day. By having faith that I could do this, I learned 3 times more lines in less time compared to my previous roll.

Also, look at the 12 steps on the AA website: it is through faith in "God as I believe Him to be" that millions have been able to become sober. Is this proof of the existence of God? Perhaps not. But it is proof of the power of faith! Saying to yourself "I think I can" is not sufficient. Faith is Certainty, despite the opinions of others, however well justified those opinions may be.

"As ye have faith, so shall your powers and blessings be! This is the balance! This is the balance! This is the balance!"
- 'Abdu'l-Baha, from the writings of the Baha'i Faith
(Baha'is have faith in the oneness of humanity, the inevitability of world wide peace and cooperation, and in an ever advancing civilization.)

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@richard mcnair,

richard_mcnair;138025 wrote:

This is a question that has been on my mind recently. I think many people would define it as accepting religious doctrines and ideas unquestioningly from some authority, but I think this is a caricature. What did Jesus mean when he said 'O ye of little faith'?

What is your definition of 'faith'?

Even when you recive contradicting information, or end in doubt of what you belive in, you still hold true.

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What is faith?

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