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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 03:55 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
My completely unscientific opinion is that Bush therefore has the advantage in this debate. He has the advantage of being perceived as truthful while any inadvertent stumbles will be forgiven. Kerry has the disadvantage of being untruthful or disingenuous no matter how eloquently he makes his case during the debate.

I agree - I think that's exactly, sadly, where things now stand (which to me is a tribute to the efficiency of the Bush campaign machine).

Washington Post's John Harris wrote last Thursday:

Quote:
Polls have shown overwhelmingly that Kerry -- with his long trail of confusing and sometimes contradictory statements, especially on Iraq -- is this year's flip-flopper in the public mind [..].

Once such a popular perception becomes fixed, public opinion experts and strategists say, virtually every episode in the campaign is viewed through that prism, while facts that do not fit with existing assumptions -- such as Bush's history of policy shifts -- do not have much impact in the political debate. [..]

Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, said voters' perceptions are too settled at this point to allow easily for alternate arguments. Once the public concludes that a politician is strong in general, he or she has more freedom to be flexible on certain delicate particulars, Kohut said, adding that in the case of this year's nominees, "Bush can get away with a little more, and Kerry can get away with a little less."

And David Von Drehle, also in the WaPo, wrote that

Quote:
debates tend to favor the frontrunner: "The debates I've covered [since 1992] have tended to solidify, rather than shake up, the race. I'm not sure why that is, except that the candidate in front has the advantage in any debate. All he has to do is maintain the status quo. Presumably there are some reasons why he's ahead and the other guy is behind -- the frontrunner just has to figure those out and poke at them to keep them fresh.

"Whereas the guy in second-place has to change the shape of the race -- re-frame it -- give people a new way of seeing the comparison between them. That's a bit more uphill."
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:23 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Here's the real problem with Bush supporters.

The vast majority of them don't know what the hell they are voting for. ...

Cycloptichorn


Once again you make sweeping statements about issues that are basically unknowable. OK by me if you say, ' I believe the vast majority of Republicans don't know...'. But you don't do that. Instead of expressing an opinion: you stated what purports to be a fact, when it most certainly is not a fact.

As a result, all the rest of your argument, including the lengthy paste is meaningless.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:37 pm
Actually, he was summarising, in a folksy way, the poll results included in that lengthy paste ...

You may argue with the credibility of the poll in question, like I invited Fox to do previously. But you can't look at it and then say, well Cyclo, you really have no way of knowing - because there's a dataset, right there, that he's basing his claim on. Its not often that you find someone here who actually provides us with the underlying dataset to his claim, when professing a conviction on what Americans think or feel ...

Again, I'm not sure about this poll and you're surely welcome to argue it - it'd be nice to have it responded to in a way that actually deals with it, rather than merely attacks the messenger.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:43 pm
No sensational insights, but a neat overview of where the race stands in the polls, regionally and by issue and target group ...

Quote:
CAMPAIGN JOURNAL
Red Zone

by Ryan Lizza

On the eve of his first debate with George W. Bush, the good news for John Kerry is that poll after poll shows that his attempt to showcase the setbacks in Iraq is turning public opinion against the war. A new Pew poll, for example, shows that the public's confidence in Bush's handling of Iraq has dropped six points since Kerry opened his new line of attack. Kerry's strategy is undoubtedly working. The problem is that Bush's strategy of destroying Kerry's credibility is working better.

Perhaps the worst news for Kerry is his deteriorating favorability rating. In several of the most important battleground states, such as Wisconsin and Ohio, that number has dipped into the 30s in some polls since the Democratic convention in late July. In ABC's recent national poll, Kerry's favorability rating dropped from 51 to 37 percent since he left Boston, and his unfavorability rating rose from 32 to 42 percent. Pointing to his comeback in the Iowa caucuses last winter, some aides have argued that Kerry can overtake Bush in the debates. But in Iowa, even when Kerry was in third place, his favorability ratings remained strong. That is how his campaign knew that gambling everything on Iowa made sense. Kerry's high favorability rating told them he had a great deal of latent support they could tap if Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt stumbled. They were right. But now, this basic measure of the public's view of the candidate is in the red zone, making a debate revival much tougher.

Measures of other personal attributes are in similarly bad shape. Only 23 percent of respondents to the Pew poll think Kerry is "willing to take an unpopular stand." Just 28 percent say he is a "strong leader," and 36 percent say he's "good in a crisis." These numbers complicate Kerry's job in the debates in two important ways. For one, he must attack Bush without worsening his own image, especially with those delicate flowers known as swing voters, who insist they hate negative politics. For another, by sowing so many doubts about Kerry's character, Bush has preemptively undermined anything that comes out of Kerry's mouth. (Consultants sometimes call it "destroying the aircraft carrier rather than shooting down each plane.") If Kerry loses, his decision not to vigorously defend himself from Bush's attack ads this spring-the so-called rope-a-dope strategy-and not to mount a sustained character-based attack on Bush himself over the spring and summer will be seen as crucial mistakes.

Despite the recent spate of bad polling news, there are still areas of opportunity for Kerry. Pollster Stanley Greenberg, who is now advising the Kerry campaign, recently studied 3,000 interviews conducted in September and broke down potential Kerry targets into two groups. One is filled with Democratic base voters. Kerry is currently underperforming among four pillars of the Democratic coalition--white single women, well-educated white women, white union households, and African Americans--each of which is tepid in its support for different reasons. In a polling memo, Greenberg argues that blacks want Kerry to get tougher on Bush, college-educated women want to hear Kerry's plan for Iraq, and union members aren't hearing enough about the economy and doubt if Kerry's spine is steely enough to fight terrorism. But still, these should be natural Democratic voters, and the slack among them in support for Kerry is "[o]ne reason why Kerry is likely to make gains after the debate," argues Greenberg.

The other area of opportunity for Kerry is with what might be called "change-gap swing voters." Across a wide range of swing voter demographics, there is a gap between the percentage who say they want a new direction for the country and the percentage who say they support Kerry. Greenberg says the "biggest potential gold mine" is with white women without college degrees, voters who, in previous elections, have been dubbed "waitress moms." Forty-eight percent say they want a new direction, but only 41 percent of them support Kerry. This same dynamic exists among older white women, the under-30 crowd, and rural voters, whom Greenberg calls the "biggest key to the Bush election." In fact, rural voters seem to be a driving force behind the shrinking of the electoral battleground that Kerry now faces.

That shrinkage has been dramatic. Whereas Kerry's campaign was once boldly advertising in Arizona, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Virginia, all four states now appear out of reach. Kerry also seems to have given up on John Edwards's home state of North Carolina, even though several recent polls show a close race. Even more surprising is that Kerry has stopped advertising in Missouri, a bellwether state that Bush won by just three points in 2000.

This means there are only eleven true battleground states left. The rough consensus among campaign handicappers like Charlie Cook is that Kerry has 15 states and Washington, D.C., either locked up or leaning his way, for a total of 207 electoral votes. Bush has 24 states locked up or leaning his way, for a total of 208 votes. To get to victory-270 electoral votes-Bush and Kerry must fight over the remaining eleven toss-ups, worth 123 electoral votes. First, there are the three large battleground states of Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. Then there are the three upper Midwestern states that Al Gore barely won in 2000 (Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa), and the two Northeastern states that Bush narrowly won (New Hampshire and West Virginia). Finally, there are the two rapidly growing red Western states that are wild cards in this race (Colorado and Nevada) and their blue Southwestern neighbor (New Mexico).

Of the three big battlegrounds, Kerry is doing best in Pennsylvania, which Gore won by four points. Like Michigan, which was once a battleground but now seems relatively safe for Kerry, Pennsylvania appears to have resisted some of the worst post-convention trends. Bush's bounce there was small and short-lived compared with other battleground states. Kerry has to win Pennsylvania and then one more of the big three. Ohio has seen a tilt toward Bush since his convention, but it has not yet gone the way of Missouri. Florida, with its unique pastiche of ethnic groups, offers opportunities for Kerry among Miami Cubans, Jews, Haitians, and I-4 corridor Hispanics, who could offset Bush's gains in rural areas. Hurricanes have created confusion among pollsters about the state of the race. After the first debate, Kerry may have to take stock and choose between targeting Florida or Ohio.

The rest of the route to 270 goes through the eight small and midsize states concentrated in three regions. Kerry's rural problem is most acute in the upper Midwest. In both Iowa and Wisconsin, Gore did better in rural areas than he did in the rest of the country. As Michael Barone has noted, "Gore carried many historically Republican or marginal counties in western Wisconsin, just as he carried many rural counties across the Mississippi River in eastern Iowa." Kerry seems to be losing that advantage as Bush concentrates his visits and get-out-the-vote efforts on sparsely populated areas of the states. Meanwhile, Bush's lavish agricultural subsidies and the relatively buoyant local economies (especially compared with the industrial battlegrounds to the east) have made it harder for Kerry to hold onto these states. He appears safest in Minnesota, but, if he loses Wisconsin and Iowa's 17 electoral votes, his only fallback is to hold New Mexico and raid at least two of the four small states--worth 23 electoral votes--that Bush barely won in 2000.

But perhaps these small red toss-up states hold more promise than the fading blue ones anyway. New Hampshire is dead even right now and seems more natural in the Kerry column, especially since much of it has become a virtual suburb of Boston. Meanwhile, in West Virginia, a historically Democratic state that Bush won, Kerry remains competitive and has avoided association with the environment and gun-control issues that killed Gore. Finally, in the Western battlegrounds, Nevada's Clark County, home to Las Vegas, has added more people since the last presidential election than almost any other county in America. Growth there means Democrats: In every election since 1980, the percentage of the county voting Democratic has increased. Colorado, which was not even competitive in 2000, has a growing high-tech, latte-town liberal culture centered around Boulder and Denver that is offsetting the state's evangelical Christian and conservative exurbs. In nearby New Mexico, which Gore barely won, the trends also seem to favor Kerry. The pro-Bush white areas of the state are not growing nearly as fast as the pro-Kerry Hispanic and Native American areas. Nevada's explosive growth and Kerry's opposition to making Yucca Mountain a nuclear depository have opened the doors to victory.

All eleven of these states are still up for grabs, though Bush leads in more of them than Kerry does. Looking beyond the current horserace, what we may be seeing in the shifting battleground is a consolidation of general trends in both parties, with Democrats potentially locking down more of the Northeast (Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and, just possibly, West Virginia) and union-heavy states like Michigan, while Bush uses cultural issues and terrorism to increase his advantage in the rural upper Midwest. Meanwhile, the explosive growth in some Western and Southwestern states creates an unsettled electorate there that keeps both sides on their toes. With a little imagination, this shifting battleground may be an opportunity for Kerry rather than a threat.

Ryan Lizza is a senior editor at TNR.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:49 pm
I believe the vast majority of Republicans don't know how to translate the following simple sentences from English into !kung...
"Do you click your thumb at me, sir?"
"Stop humping this minute!"
"The President of the United States is a doofus."
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 10:00 pm
Bush didn't do so well tonight because he couldn't use his stump speech which he has memorized down to the last shrug. That speech resembles more of a stand up routine than a political statement, more like he running to be the next Jay Leno than to be re-elected, but tonight was about serious matters to be dealt with seriously and Bush looked ill at ease, distracted and a little upset that he had to be there instead of with his adoring, applauding friends out there in the heartland.

Take heart, Mr President, only three more months and ya'll will be able to head back to Texas.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 11:42 pm
I'd say neither won ... or lost. At best, it was a draw, essentially disappointing for both sides. I imagine Kerry will get a bit of polling relief over the next few days, though I doubt it will be long-lasting, and I do not expect it to percolate down through the internals. All in all, neither did themselves or their opponents any harm or good. Expectations for both had been raised to improbable levels, and its wholly unsurprising the bar wasn't reached by either. In the long run, Kerry remains the challenger, trying but just not quite able to regain the lead he showed early in the race, while Bush remains Bush, holding onto his late race lead. If Kerry is gonna do better, he's gonna hafta DO better. To hold Kerry off, all Bush has to do is keep on bein' Bush.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:08 am
Who won the debate?

Lemme see if I can do a wrap-up. Daly has some, and polling report has (EDIT:) just one (ABC).

But first, this link courtesy of Acquiunk:

Masked revelers prefer Bush - Get this one: Halloween mask sales predictor says incumbent will beat Kerry in November.

Apparently, according to "people in the costume business", "the winner in every election since 1980 has been the candidate whose masks were most popular on Halloween". They got a graph of mask sales since 1980 and everything.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:15 am
OK, this from pollingreport.com:

ABC News Poll. N=531, MoE ± 4.5
"Who, in your opinion, won the debate?"

Bush 36
Kerry 45
Tie 17


Of Democrats, 81% thought Kerry won. Of Republicans, only 69% thought Bush won. Of Independents, 48% thought Kerry won, 28% thought Bush won and 24% thought it was a tie.

All good.

One perhaps troubling detail: women were relatively less impressed by Kerry (46/39) - or should I say more polarised or opinionated (which is unusual)? - than men (43/34).

---------
ADDED:

The downside to this poll showing most people thinking Kerry won the debate, is that the respondents didn't actually change their opinion of whom they were planning to vote for:

Vote preference among debate viewers (post-debate compared to pre-debate):

Bush 51% (+1)
Kerry 47% (+1)
Nader 0% (-1)


Further details:

Quote:
---------

Here's the graph:

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ABCdebate.GIF
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:16 am
Quote:
or should I say more polarised or opinionated (which is unusual)?


<lifts eyebrow...>
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:18 am
heh ... well, it's true! in the polls, there's almost always more undecideds among women than among men ... sorry, guv, its not me who compiles these numbers ... ;-)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:24 am
Ah. I thought you were implying the opposite -- "like it's unusual for females to be polarised and opinionated?"
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:36 am
In passing, yesterday, Larry Ahrens on the 770 KOB morning radio show, mentioned statistics that Americans generally give the edge to the candidate who is 1) taller and 2) exudes testosterone. (I'm sorry I failed to note the source of the statistics, but Paul Harvey repeated them in his noon newscast.) Well Kerry is taller.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:38 am
CBS News poll N=209 uncommitted voters. MoE=7%

Who won the debate?

Kerry 43%
Bush 28%
Tie 29%


Good.

Presidential preference among debate watchers, post-debate compared to pre-debate:

Kerry 38% (+10)
Bush 31% (+12)
Someone else 5% (-1)
Depends 26% (-20)


Bad.

link

Details:

"More than half of the uncommitted voters said that their image of Kerry had changed for the better as a result. Just 14 percent said their opinion of Kerry had gotten worse, and one-third did not change their opinion."

Vice versa, their image of Bush remained the same - 58% did not change their opinion of him, with equal parts of the rest saying their image of Bush had become better / worse.

"On the issue of ability to handle Iraq, Kerry was the clear winner. He had a 38-point jump by this measure."

Has a clear plan for dealing with situation in Iraq:

Pre-Debate:
Kerry 14% Yes / 82% No
Bush 24% Yes / 75% No

Post-debate:
Kerry 52% Yes / 46% No
Bush 39% Yes / 60% No

On the other hand, when it comes to who's trusted to protect the US from terrorist attacks, both candidates did equally well - they both persuaded about as many uncommitted voters on that score.

Before the debate, 46% trusted Kerry and 51% trusted Bush. After the debate, 61% trusted Kerry and 64% trusted Bush. For Kerry, good news at least because he'd a negative net margin before the debate - that's all gone. For Bush good news because if people greatly trust him on the paramount issue, why fire him?

Bad news for Kerry: "more women think Mr. Bush can be trusted to protect the country from a terrorist attack than Kerry, by 62-52 percent", whereas more men said Kerry could be trusted to protect the country, by 71-66 percent. Of course, keep the huge MoE in mind.

Finally, favourability has always been Kerry's main flaw. But he did good. Kerry "is someone you would like personally", now says 61%. 56% says the same about Bush.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:38 am
Yep!

I mentioned on one of the debate threads that Bush came out first and grabbed Kerry's space -- but in the photos today, you can't tell, and what you see is Bush looking up at the taller Kerry.

Those little perception things do count, though they shouldn't.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 09:55 am
Wa Times: Political strategists declare debate a draw

Miami Herald: Hype aside, debate has no TiVo moments

LA Times: It's the Spin, Not the Debate

CBS: Experts Rate Debate A Draw

ABC: More Viewers Say Kerry Won Debate, But Voter Preferences Remain the Same

Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: Score it a tie

NY Post: DEM CHALLENGER STANDS TALL BUT STILL COMES UP SHORT

Macon Telegraph: Both candidate's supporters claim victory in debate

7.Com: Bush-Kerry debate lacks knockout punch

Loisville Courier-Journal: Panelists see little to change opinions

And then there's this from C-SPAN:
Quote:
LOCKHART: DEBATE CONSENSUS A 'DRAW'

Unbeknownst to Kerry adviser Mike McCurry, a C-SPAN camera quietly followed McCurry as he found Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart on Spin Alley floor and asked him his impression of the debate. Lockhart candidly said to McCurry , "The consensus is it was a draw."


If there's anything there to get excited about either way, for either side, I dunno what it might be. The network overnights give last night's debate bigger numbers than the 1st 2000 debate pulled, with the cable numbers - not out 'till later today - expected to show much the same. Lotsa folks tuned in to watch - although viewership dropped in each succeeding 1/2-hour segment. It'll be Monday's poll releases that really tell the tale, but I really doubt there's gonna be much if any tale to tell.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 10:04 am
Gallup / CNN / USA Today poll. N=615, MoE=4%

"Who do you think did the better job in the debate: John Kerry or George W. Bush?"

Kerry 53%
Bush 37%
Neither/Both/Equally 9%


This is distinctly better for Kerry than how Gore did in 2000; back then, the poll done immediately after the first debate showed Gore having won (yes), but by a relatively narrow margin (48% to 41%). (Bush was seen as winning the second debate, with the third debate a tie. The impression that Bush had "won the debates" solidified over time).

In fact, it's almost as good as Clinton did in '96, when he whipped Dole 51% to 32%.

Details:

46% came away with a more favourable view of Kerry, and only 13% with a less favourable view.

Of Bush, 21% got a more favourable view, and 17% a less favourable view, while 62% said their view of him hadn't changed much.

That's the same conclusion as in the CBS poll: Kerry gained points, Bush played a draw.

It's a pretty impressive score for Kerry; not since Perot did a candidate in any of the election debates manage to improve his image among so many voters. This is truly something I'm hoping will show up in the next batch of polls.

On Iraq and "the responsibilities of commander-in-chief", however, the two candidates scored a draw. No perceptions were changed.

Before and after the debate, 54% thought Bush would do better on Iraq. Kerry went up marginally from 40% to 43%.

Before and after the debate, 54-55% trusted Bush more as CinC; 42-44% Kerry. All well within the MoE.

Bush was also seen as "agree[ing] with you more on the issues you care about" by a slight margin, 49% to 46%. Kerry here only did marginally better against Bush than Gore did.

And although Kerry was seen as "expressing himself more clearly" (60%/32%), they were seen as having a "good understanding of the issues" by equal numbers of respondents (41% each).

Further bad news includes 50% to 45% thinking Bush "was more believable"; 48% to 41% thinking Bush was "more likeable" and 54% to 37% thinking Bush "demonstrated [better that] he is tough enough for the job".
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 10:07 am
I know most of you don't trust Rasmussen as much as other polling sources, and their track record may justify that distrust, but as they do daily polls, it has been interesting watching the trends.

Today:
Quote:
Bush 49% Kerry 45%

The latest Rasmussen Reports Presidential Tracking Poll shows President George W. Bush with 49% of the vote and Senator John Kerry with 45%. John Kerry has not been ahead in the daily Tracking Poll since August 23.

The overwhelming majority of interviews for this survey were completed before the Presidential Debate last night. We interview 1,000 Likely Voters each night and report results on a three-day rolling average basis. Tomorrow's results will include more than 1,000 post-debate interviews. Monday's update will be the first based entirely upon post-debate interviews.


It will be really interesting to see tomorrow's poll results.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 10:10 am
American Research Group.

Rate the Debate - Who Won?

Panel 1
Kerry 51 %
Bush 41 %
Neither 8 %


Panel 2
Bush 42 %
Kerry 52 %
Neither 6 %

"Members of Panel 1 were asked their presidential ballot preference prior to the debate and were asked their presidential ballot preference and to rate the debate immediately following the debate. Members of Panel 2 were asked their presidential ballot preference and to rate the debate immediately following the debate. They will be asked these same questions in 24 hours. A third panel (Panel 3) was asked their presidential ballot preference prior to the debate and will be asked their presidential ballot preference and to rate the debate in 24 hours."

So lessee what they say in 24 hours ...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 10:17 am
timberlandko wrote:
If there's anything there to get excited about either way, for either side, I dunno what it might be. [..] It'll be Monday's poll releases that really tell the tale, but I really doubt there's gonna be much if any tale to tell.

This reminds me of something I just posted in reply to georgeob1 on another thread ...

nimh wrote:
I saw a post by someone directly after the debate, punditing that Kerry won and predicting how that would be evidenced by the reactions of Republicans: "look out for them to try to make it into a non-event".

I really haven't got a clue how much, if anything, of this apparent Kerry win in the debate will show up in the polls - a lot will also depend on how the media will spin it today and the next few days, and perhaps Timber's selection of headlines ("it was a draw") will be indicative of that.

But it sure suggests some hope and comfort to see the senior conservatives here trying to downplay the entire debate as something of a non-event ... If they'd thought Bush had scored some solid points, the punditry would have been quite different, I think! ;-)
0 Replies
 
 

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