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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 06:47 am
The evidence seems to be Timber, that the early exit polling was heavily slanted toward women who typically were slanted more toward Kerry. Even the alphabet soup channels were complaining about this once it became apparent how wrong that early data was going to be. Maybe it was an anomaly or an honest mistake. There is a growing consensus, however, that there is a possibility that it was intentional, that put out there duirng the vote with no caution re the demographics could have affected the vote, and my understanding is that a quiet investigation is underway. It probably is no biggie but gave one more instance of possible attempted election fraud. I for one am sick to death of those who try to thwart honest elections and don't think stuff should be let slide.

This may have been normal and no big deal, but it was so across the board all across the country that the suspicion is there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 08:57 am
If one wants some insight into the "accuracy" of the LATimes exit polls, one might only have to look at the California recall election of 2003.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 10:58 am
timberlandko wrote:
Fox, ya gotta remember that first reports on just about anything are almost invariably wrong. If any blame is to be laid, it is dual:

1) Irresponsible media types breathlessly relaying incomplete, essentially conjectural information as "breaking news" in the absence of any actual relevant news, attempting thereby to engage and retain the target audience in the interest of nothng more substantial than ratings

and

2) Uncritical acceptance and eager pursuit of such information on the part of folks who really ought to know better than to put much value on "early reports"


You were apparently not watching the reports, timber. There was no breathless relaying of breaking news. They were reporting in a state as close to a coma as one can imagine. I've never heard so many people say "we can't say" "we can't predict" "we don't know anything yet". It put me to sleep three separate times.

It seems that you are basing your opinion on Foxf's posts, timber. I'm sure you don't mind if I call that uncritical acceptance and eager pursuit on the part of folks who really ought to know better.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 11:03 am
What I base my impression on, ehBeth, is the way the ongoing coverage looked to me as I watched it unfold across all the networks, the commentary thereunto attatched, my own experience re "early reports", the wailing of folks who seem to think it was an intentional manipulation attempt. I don't think it was an intentional attempt to sway things, I think it was simply the typical error of early reports, and I think the folks who see it as something sinister are barking at shadows.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 02:52 pm
I've done a little foolin' around with the various county-by-county election return maps out there on the web. With the help of GPS mapping software and perusal of the Vital Statistics and Demographics web pages of each of the States and DC, I've confirmed to my own satisfaction that Kerry had little support outside of urban areas.

The landmass of The United States, considering only the 50 States and The District of Columbia, comprises some 5,689,554 square miles, give or take a few acres, according to any source one might care to check. The land area of the counties won by Kerry, according to the results maps posted on the web and confirmed by examining the county-by-county results posted by the various State Election Board websites, plus the District of Columbia, amounts to somewhat less than 750,000 square miles, nearly all of which (by my calculations, about 86%) is classified primarily or exclusively as "Urban".

According to the Economic Research Service of The US department of Agriculture, by 2000 Census figures roughly 59 Million-some-odd Americans are classified as living in "Rural" areas.

This USDA map shows the distribution of rural-vs-urban counties, the un-shaded counties being urban:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Rurality/Images/nonmetromap.gif

That map has a striking correlation to this USA Today county-by-county Election 2004 result map (note: areas neither red nor blue are "as yet unreported", Alaska is not represented):

http://images.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/elections2004/_images/2004countymap3.gif

and to this notably similar USA Today map of Election 2000 results:

http://images.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/elections2004/_images/2000countymap.gif

Not indicative of anything other than that folks who live outside of cities seem to have voted preponderantly one way, while those who live within cities appear to have voted preponderantly another way, and the same has been true for two consecutive Presidential Contests. The phenomonon is evident beyond any ambiguity. I offer no conjecture as to the causation of this phenomonon, merely the observation that it exists. An interesting coincidence, and admittedly a red herring of the first order, is the correlation between the 59-Million-some-odd "Rural Americans" and the 59 Million-some-odd votes Bush the Greater received this election.

Further removing my excersize from rigorous academic good practice and scientific validity, I didn't run the same examination of results for other-than-Kerry. This was meant and is presented as no more than an amusement. Thought-provoking, perhaps, but merely an amusement.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:15 pm
Eventually, those in urban areas will evolve into another race and they will feed on those humans that remain in the rural areas of the US.



*edit: thanks.*
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:21 pm
Quote:
Eventually, those in urban areas will evolve into another race and they will feed on those humans that remain in the urban areas of the US.


Was your second 'urban' supposed to be 'rural?'

In any case, you're probably right. Survival of the fittest, yaknow.

Cycloptichorn
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:26 pm
Those maps are the strongest possible argument for the electoral college though. Without it, every election could be determined by fewer than a dozen large metropolitan areas.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:27 pm
Representation by population.
In some countries they call it democracy.
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:50 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Representation by population.
In some countries they call it democracy.


As we do in this country, each state being represented in accordance with its population.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:53 pm
Yes in the U.S. we think the people living in Muleshoe TX or Tucumcari NM should have at least some of the same opportunity as people living in LA or NYC. Further those living in Muleshoe or Tucumcari don't really trust people in LA or NYC to have Muleshoe's or Tucumcari's best interests at heart. The electoral college makes sure that all are included in the process.

We call it a Republic.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 05:39 pm
Yup, The Electoral College, a keystone of our Federal System, did as it was designed to do; it prevented the tyranny of Urban Interests from overwhelming Rural Interests. A more persuasive argument for the institution cannot be made.


Revisiting the Exit Poll flap, the WSJ appears to agree with my take:

Quote:
http://online.wsj.com/img/printformat_logo.gif

November 4, 2004

ELECTION 2004

How Insiders Were Fooled[/i][/u]

Bloggers Leaked Secret Data
Giving Kerry an Early Lead,
But Networks Honored Rules

By JESSE DRUCKER and GLENN R. SIMPSON
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
November 4, 2004; Page B1

Thanks to lessons learned four years ago when big media made some wrong calls, the average American watching television Tuesday night got a pretty accurate picture of how the election was going.

But for about seven hours in the afternoon and early evening, several million "insiders" with access to exit-poll data -- blog readers, print journalists, TV executives, politicos and their e-mail buddies -- had a different impression.

Aided by wishful thinking in some cases, many were convinced that John Kerry was benefitting from a powerful voter surge. The news largely wasn't reported on TV or in newspapers, but for much of the day, the nation's tech-savvy intelligentsia was zigging when everyone else was zagging.

What happened? The early exit polls were wrong in some cases. And some insiders disregarded warnings from the exit pollsters that theirs is an inexact science. By comparison, most pre-election polls were quite accurate: They gave President Bush a narrow lead nationally, and correctly identified the battleground states.

The first wave of exit-poll data, compiled by a media-owned consortium called the National Election Pool, went out to subscribers at about 2 p.m. The consortium consists of the five big purveyors of TV news plus the Associated Press. Other media, such as some newspapers and magazines, pay thousands of dollars to see the results. (The NEP was assembled to replace Voter News Service, an earlier consortium whose faulty exit polls caused TV networks to call Florida for Al Gore in 2000.) All had entered into agreements not to leak or make the information public prematurely.

But the 2 p.m. poll results were leaked almost immediately to the Web-log operators called bloggers. The "blogosphere," as this community likes to call itself, was split on whether to release the confidential data. Several blogs did -- bolstered by the respected Microsoft Corp.-owned magazine Slate -- often with caveats attached.

At 1:58 p.m. Eastern time, mydd.com, a political blog, posted exit-poll results from 12 states, with the caution that they were "early numbers." They showed Kerry with a four-point lead in Ohio and a three-point lead in Florida. At 4:27, the site added another set of numbers, commenting: "Kerry continues to lead Florida overall as well. Again, these are exit poll numbers, so doubt them, but it looks great!"

Slate posted its first results at 3:15 p.m.; earlier, it had posted a long note explaining its decision to publish the exit polls, including a disclaimer about their potential inaccuracy.

"There's this election-day charade that goes on every four years where journalists and friends of journalists are all trading this exit-poll information which historically has had pretty high predictive value, and they've kept that information from readers and viewers while hinting at it," said Slate's editor, Jacob Weisberg. "My view is we can't be in the position of holding back information that's accurate."

But it turned out to be inaccurate, Mr. Weisberg said yesterday. As late as 7:20 p.m. Slate displayed polls showing Kerry leading by two points in Florida and Ohio. "My layman's analysis is they were pretty significantly off," he said of the exit polls.

Exit polls from later in the day were generally within a few points of the final voting tallies. But significantly, exit polls reported at 7 p.m. predicted that Sen. Kerry would do slightly better than he actually did in 15 of 16 states, suggesting some systemic pattern in the methodology.

Warren Mitofsky, a longtime CBS election analyst who co-heads the NEP, said the consortium spotted problems with its early data in Florida, South Carolina, Virginia and six other states. "We had called the networks earlier in the day and told them about a handful of states where we didn't think the results were accurate. But we didn't think we were supposed to share that with the leaker and the leakee."

Indeed, Mr. Mitofsky said: "All the people getting leaked stuff were getting [it] from people who weren't always accurate . . . and were premature, and now they are complaining about it. We didn't mislead the people we were working with. We made any number of projections. All of them were correct."

Complaints about the NEP data stem from a fundamental misunderstanding about such polling, Mr. Mitofsky added: "In a football game, after you get the score at halftime, do you get mad at the announcer if it doesn't turn out that way?"

"I hope I've had some role in killing exit polls," wonkette.com Editor Ana Marie Cox, one of the bloggers who reported exit polls, said in an interview yesterday. "To the extent that blogs provide people with bad or misleading information, I hope that teaches people not to trust media in general."

It wasn't only bloggers that reported exit polls. WSJ.com, the Web site of this newspaper, posted an article between 3 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. saying the early exit-poll data "purported to give Mr. Kerry an early lead in several key states" but raised questions about the validity of the numbers. The article linked to mydd.com, which posted the figures. "To have a story about how the election is playing out on the Web and not mention the exit polls would be a disservice," said Bill Grueskin, the managing editor of WSJ.com.

Reuters news service ran a story at 6:17 p.m., citing political Web sites and their exit-poll data indicating a strong Kerry lead. Reuters also quoted an article from the conservative National Review casting doubt on the validity of the polls.

Adding to the confusion, pollster John Zogby late Tuesday afternoon predicted Mr. Kerry would capture 311 electoral votes to President Bush's 213, with two states too close to call. "Even though I think our pre-election polling was, by and large, good, we've got some new developments that we need to somehow take a look at," Mr. Zogby said in an interview yesterday. "One is the growing number of voters who make up their mind on election day." He said he used data that went up to 2 p.m. to make his prediction "but some didn't vote until five or six or seven o'clock."

Larry Sabato, a University of Virginia political scientist and expert on polling, contended the exit polls skewed news coverage toward Mr. Kerry and may even have had the perverse result of delaying the reporting of actual results in some states because they didn't match projections. He blamed, in part, what he described as too-high numbers of women and minority voters in the exit-poll samples.

But other experts in public-opinion research say they think the exit-polling system worked quite well overall. Michael Delli Carpini, dean of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania, said the media suffers from "a bit of ignorance about what you can take away from an exit poll, especially the early waves. They are still polls, and polls have a certain amount of error associated with them. And ... a two or three percent difference is within the margin of error."

Even though the TV networks were largely scrupulous about not revealing the poll information, observant viewers could see a certain implicit wink-and-nod drift to Kerry, at least early on. Fox News business reporter Neil Cavuto reported in his late-afternoon program that Mr. Kerry was doing well, while CNN's "Crossfire" had pundits analyzing how Mr. Kerry had managed to turn the race around in his favor, and raising questions about Mr. Bush's ability to capture Ohio.

Early in the evening, both the broadcast and cable networks were very reluctant to call several Southern states, including Virginia and South Carolina, both of which traditionally go Republican but seemed to be leaning towards Sen. Kerry.

"I know the White House expressed concern that we not take the early exit polls as a true guide," said CNN Political Director Tom Hannon, adding that he shared those doubts.

"The public should beware," said Linda Mason, vice president of public affairs at CBS News, said: "In some cases, people are criticizing the media for making these forecasts. We didn't make these forecasts, we use them as a tool, and if someone else gets it and misuses the tool, we can't be blamed for that."

--Joe Flint contributed to this article.

Write to Jesse Drucker at [email protected] and Glenn R. Simpson at [email protected]

Copyright 2004 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved


Little or nothing was wrong with the info, the flaw was how it was treated.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 10:45 pm
Yes, I agree. But how it was treated is what has raised suspicions. Even the alphabet networks have been talking about that today. If there was intent to affect the vote through intentional 'leaks', that should be dealt with, but I'll leave it to others at this point.

Meanwhile, am I wrong that Rasmussen exhonerated themselves with the most accurate polls overall? And pardon me if I smirk just a little bit that Zogby had to eat some crow. Smile
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 05:59 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Yes, I agree. But how it was treated is what has raised suspicions. Even the alphabet networks have been talking about that today. If there was intent to affect the vote through intentional 'leaks', that should be dealt with, but I'll leave it to others at this point.

Meanwhile, am I wrong that Rasmussen exhonerated themselves with the most accurate polls overall? And pardon me if I smirk just a little bit that Zogby had to eat some crow. Smile


No question, Zogby showed the most bias in favor of the Dem candidate. This is quite easy to do since all the major polls apply fudge factors to the raw numbers to account for demographic and other factors. And these fudge factors are value judgments more than hard analytical numbers.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 06:24 am
I liked your maps Timber, I just wish I had the technical skill to present the same data in 3-D stacks show numbers of people voting rather than county land mass. After all Osage County, Oklahoma with 35,000 people gets as much red ink as Manhattan with 5,000,000. In fact the whole state of Oklahoma has less people in it then Manhattan has on it, but all we get this little blue smudge for our efforts.

In 3-D there would be huge mountains of Kerry voters in the urban areas and lots and lots of little molehills of Bush voters. The same data, the same result, but presented in a more representative way than square footage.

Joe

BTW On the upper West Side, my stomping grounds, the people voted 93 percent-7percent for John Kerry.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 07:56 am
(Please imagine, as you read the following, that my eyesight is 20/20, that there is little or no wind this morning to waft away the pleasant odor of gun-blue, and that I type from a high belltower)

On the day before the election, while visiting with friends dyslexia and dianne in Albuquerque, I got in a serious scrap with my favorite lady after musing that only a Bush win would protect the Democrats from the coming blighted harvest that has been sown during the last four years. Which is not to say that I didn't get laid anyway, nor is it to say that the last few days have brought me optimism, nor is it to say that the parenthetical introduction above is false.

Shall we do a plus/minus analysis? Typically, when I such an analysis, I begin with the plus column, then I'll go for a bite to eat or a coffee and cigarette, then I return to my half-naked notepad and file it away for posterity. I'm a positive thinker, and in this characteristic, feel some affinity with the sitting President, even if he gained more votes to dislodge him from his office than any other candidate in the history of your great nation.

Plus #1...
Young people came out to vote, and most of them voted against bigotry, against homophobia, against theocracy, against dishonesty, against the rape of the environment, against tax cuts to the rich, against the privatization of social services, against dog eat dog christianity, against sphincters stretched as tight as Gene Krupa's snare drum, and against smirking.

This is hopeful. In not too long a while, timber and foxfyre will be dead. Of course, so will I, but you can't have everything in this life.

Plus #2...
I watched TV for a mere ten minutes yesterday, and in that small bit of time saw both Jerry Fallwell and Robert Bork talking. I saw, rather than heard them, as I had the sound off (set within a set: the positive - no idiocies invaded our calm and tastefully-appointed Manhattan residence; the negative - still more smirking).

This might not, at first glance, seem a positive at all. But look again. What we have here is a duplicate of the ever-so-bright Bush/Cheney Iraq/terrorist strategy...make enemies, make lots and lots of them, get them really angry and murderous, and then you have a good thing, progress, a postive.

Plus #3...
Dr. James Dobson, head of Focus On The Family, has kindly agreed to make a cameo appearance when I get funding for my screenplay, "WitchBusters".

Plus #4...Churchill. In the morning, I'll be sober, but you madam, you'll still be ugly.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 09:08 am
<< Hopes Zogby chokes a bit on that crow - perhaps he'll wash it down with a bit of French champagne Smile
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 09:43 am
In the previous election Gore won New Mexico by a razor thin margin. The democrats in Dona Ana County (Las Cruces - NM's 2nd largest city in southern New Mexico) kept looking long after the vote was counted and 'miraculously' came up with just enough votes to put Gore over the top. As Bush had already been declared victor, the GOP opted not to challenge even though voting machines on the heavily GOP eastern corridor had not registered any straight ticket votes. The conventional wisdom is that New Mexico was legitimately a red state but it just wasn't worth it to prove it.

Now the Democrats in Dona Ana county, behind closed doors, are doing a recount and review of provisional ballots that will almost certainly will again 'miraculously' produce just enough votes to put Kerry over the top. The GOP demanded a bipartisan recount effort with impartial and bipartisan watchers over the count. The Dems refused. The GOP filed suit and it appears the Dems will have to allow the GOP to participate and the recount to be verifiable.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 09:45 am
Foxfyre wrote:

Now the Democrats in Dona Ana county, behind closed doors, are doing a recount and review of provisional ballots that will almost certainly will again 'miraculously' produce just enough votes to put Kerry over the top. The GOP demanded a bipartisan recount effort with impartial and bipartisan watchers over the count. The Dems refused. The GOP filed suit and it appears the Dems will have to allow the GOP to participate.


Gee Foxy! How Horrible!

Who would even think of secret processes to miraculously produce just enough votes to put their candidate over the top!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2004 11:07 am
Joe, this isn't 3D, but it does show relative levels of support State-by-State. Blue of course represents support for the Democrat's most recent Presidential Contest Footnote, and red indicates support for Bush The Greater. The more saturated the color, the wider the margin between the candidate scoring that state and his opponent. It is clear that the guy The Democrats went with this cycle was dominant - 61% or better - in only a couple jurisdictions, strong - 56%-60% - in 4 more, while Bush The Greater was dominant in 9 and strong in another dozen or so. Among the remaining couple dozen jurisdictions, the loser won 12 states with 55% or less of the vote. The implication is clear; The Democrats failed to engage The Electorate in any significant manner.

http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/fxwf6.jpg
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