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Judging others is judging ourselves..?

 
 
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 06:23 am
Greetings once again.

Apologies for not being too familiar with the rest of the forums, resulting in me posting here everytime. But nevertheless, I feel them fit to be in this compartment of the site.

This is just something I have been pondering about lately due to interactions with the various personalities in my surroundings.

The underlying question to this thread is: What causes us to judge people or inversely be judged? In correlation to indivual perspectives of thought, words and actions.

Look forward to your responses and thank you in advance.
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kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 09:16 am
@Infovore,
Infovore;94746 wrote:
Greetings once again.

Apologies for not being too familiar with the rest of the forums, resulting in me posting here everytime. But nevertheless, I feel them fit to be in this compartment of the site.

This is just something I have been pondering about lately due to interactions with the various personalities in my surroundings.

The underlying question to this thread is: What causes us to judge people or inversely be judged? In correlation to indivual perspectives of thought, words and actions.

Look forward to your responses and thank you in advance.


Because it may be our job to do so, as in hiring people? Or, because we want to know whether we can rely on other people. Lots of reasons to judge people. And others have the same reasons to judge us. Obviously, there is not just one, or even two, reasons. It depends on the circumstances.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 12:07 pm
@kennethamy,
We judge for many reasons. Perhaps we should get more specific... are we talking about judging a beauty pageant, or moral judgment? You know?
Infovore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 03:01 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;95205 wrote:
We judge for many reasons. Perhaps we should get more specific... are we talking about judging a beauty pageant, or moral judgment? You know?


Moral Judgement. rooting from good and evil.. right and wrong.. what's socially acceptable and what isn't.. etc.. Why?

Thanks for clarifying that.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 03:11 pm
@Infovore,
Social organization, I imagine. We try to filter our connections for some end. You know: I'll hang out with so and so for such and such reason, but not that other person for this or that reason.

We also do it to make ourselves feel better: 'Oh, that worthless punk!' roughly translates to 'I'm better than that person'.

...not to justify any of that.
0 Replies
 
sarek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 06:51 am
@Infovore,
Judging is in the nature of the beast. We have evolved to judge. Survival requires snap judgements before either dinner gets aways from us or we become dinner ourselves. There was never any time for second guessing and if you had genetic predisposition towards it your family tree was on the way to extinction.
In the evolutionary sense we simply have not yet learned to cope with the luxury of having the ability to analyse a situation first.
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 08:46 am
@sarek,
I am viewing this more along the lines of making judgments about people, not necessarily for hiring or in a court.

An example would be when we see something in someone we don't like and we judge them for it. Or we judge someone based on their past or we simply judge them as condemned or going to hell for their ways. Mainly negative judgments towards another.

There's a hidden element in this because those who judge others, as the title would indicated, are also judging themselves. But how is this?

In the greater scheme of things, we're all connected with the life giving energy of this universe. Energy that comes from within and radiates outward adds that energy to the universe. We become that which we think most often. And if we judge others, we not only vibrate negative energy towards them but we also reflect and attract that same energy within us. So the feeling of superiority because we judge someone is often times showing us a lack within ourselves and most often, we judge others based upon our own thoughts. Unless of course we are influenced by others to judge.

How we judge others can change the course of human life. I remember in school, there was a kid who was not physically attractive and he came into our school from another town and nobody liked him. They judged this boy before even getting to know him. That judgment by his peers withdrew him from society and this type of energy coming from classmates is tough to handle. As an observer of people, I watched through the years in school as he found a few friends but overall the judgment of the peers never changed. Interestingly enough, it was the 'popular' crowd or the 'IN' crowd that judged him the most... of course, making this boy feel inferior and not accepted.

After several years of being judged by his physical appearance, he began to accept it and believe the things that people would say to him and pick on him. In early high school he became aggressive and got into fights and there was yet another set of judgments placed on this boy. This aggression eventually lead to a multiple murder case and life in prison.

Looking back on this, I never seen this guy as a bad person and he probably wasn't a bad person but in the end, he did something terribly wrong which ruined his life and the life of a couple others. The peer pressure and judgment eventually was accepted and then likewise reflected in his life.

The interesting thing about this, and after going back to this town as an adult and bumping into some of the old 'IN' crowd, is that those who I remember that needed that feeling of superiority by judging those who were less fortunate in physical appearance or money... Well they became drunks, drug addicts, gas station attendants, divorcees, and simply riddled with problems. Those I met in school that did not judge others and were considered the nice kids, they grew and flourished with good jobs, family, etc. etc. (LOL, and no, I don't have issue with gas station attendants as I've been one before - I was simply making a point using a low paying job.)

So looking back, all those who were voted 'Most likely to succeed' because they were popular, are not necessarily living happy lifestyles. The ones who were class presidents due to popularity, acted the same way in college and ended up worse off then those who they used to judge. It's sort of funny how it all worked out and of course I'm just using this as an example because I remember it clearly.

So, observing life for what it is, I've seen time and time again where ill-will, burning bread, and judgment of others has a ripple effect on oneself. Condemning your brother is likewise condemning yourself. Those thoughts become things and no matter who it is, it almost always comes back where it started.

The scriptures teach us about judgment as well and I'll paraphrase' 'Judge not lest ye be judged', the casting of the first stone, the sliver in the eye of another when there's a log in our own. There's probably a ton of examples which would support the title of this thread.

People who are happy or content within themselves, usually aren't the ones to judge. Judgment usually comes from those who suffer from discontent and they recognize their own inferiority in others, building that desire to feel superior by hurting or judging others. It's a false sense of superiority that doesn't last. It's no different than snorting a line of coke... It may make you feel superior for a moment but the after effects of what you are doing to your body will show themselves later on in life and superiority becomes inferiority.

As adults, I think we judge more often because of our own inadequacies and not because of anything else. I also think that we cannot escape the wrath of our own judgments on our fellow human beings. As we judge others, the same sword will be used to judge us.

Judgment, whether it be based on religion or whatever else is something we should all work hard on getting over and past. Making a decision on whether or not to hire someone as an employee is not a judgment. If you are the employer and you don't like the how the person carries themselves and you say to yourself, "this guy is useless", even though you didn't speak those words directly to the individual, there's an energy that comes from you that has a lasting effect. It's also interesting that the judge is usually effected more by the judgment then the person who is being judged.

We can change the world if we change our perception of it and change our perception of our fellow human beings. Judge not. The ego, the super-self, the self who we are not is doing the judging and gradually, with practice, we inadvertently become our ego and likewise the judgment we so carelessly gave to others.

So to break this bad habit, I believe it takes being able to separate oneself from one's ego-self and possibly letting ego go altogether and just be yourself not judging others. It's tough. We've evolved and held high the ego of humans for so long and it's not really been all that positive for humanity or for the universe. Eliminate ego and we eliminate the need to judge others and ourselves.
Infovore
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 09:36 am
@Infovore,
Wow Justin, well put!..

People are so self-absorbed and too conscious about trivial things... resulting in groundless judgement ensuing from inadequacy... ME society as someone put in on another thread...

Thanks for the responses..
ogden
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 05:23 pm
@Infovore,
Generally, I don't think one can dismiss the importance of ego, id, or superego as an apparatus for the functioning human mind and even consciousness. I think it is impossible to not judge. Making judgment is an important social function, not something that can or should be avoided but something to be managed and understood.



I think that we should avoid negative judgments, and avoid acting in harmful ways towards others based solely on those negative judgments.



It is good to be aware what group you are in and other intricate social distinctions necessary to social critters like our selves. Judgments that are grounded in perception seem like a good way to operate. The actions you take and decisions you make based on those judgments says a lot about you and should always be questioned
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 06:58 pm
@ogden,
ogden;103541 wrote:



I think that we should avoid negative judgments, and avoid acting in harmful ways towards others based solely on those negative judgments.





You meant that if someone spits into my face, I should avoid making a negative judgment about him? Why?
ogden
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 08:24 pm
@kennethamy,
He probably has a good reason:D.
0 Replies
 
melonkali
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2009 06:08 pm
@Justin,
Justin;103122 wrote:
I am viewing this more along the lines of making judgments about people, not necessarily for hiring or in a court.

An example would be when we see something in someone we don't like and we judge them for it. Or we judge someone based on their past or we simply judge them as condemned or going to hell for their ways. Mainly negative judgments towards another.

There's a hidden element in this because those who judge others, as the title would indicated, are also judging themselves. But how is this?

In the greater scheme of things, we're all connected with the life giving energy of this universe. Energy that comes from within and radiates outward adds that energy to the universe. We become that which we think most often. And if we judge others, we not only vibrate negative energy towards them but we also reflect and attract that same energy within us. So the feeling of superiority because we judge someone is often times showing us a lack within ourselves and most often, we judge others based upon our own thoughts. Unless of course we are influenced by others to judge.

How we judge others can change the course of human life. I remember in school, there was a kid who was not physically attractive and he came into our school from another town and nobody liked him. They judged this boy before even getting to know him. That judgment by his peers withdrew him from society and this type of energy coming from classmates is tough to handle. As an observer of people, I watched through the years in school as he found a few friends but overall the judgment of the peers never changed. Interestingly enough, it was the 'popular' crowd or the 'IN' crowd that judged him the most... of course, making this boy feel inferior and not accepted.

After several years of being judged by his physical appearance, he began to accept it and believe the things that people would say to him and pick on him. In early high school he became aggressive and got into fights and there was yet another set of judgments placed on this boy. This aggression eventually lead to a multiple murder case and life in prison.

Looking back on this, I never seen this guy as a bad person and he probably wasn't a bad person but in the end, he did something terribly wrong which ruined his life and the life of a couple others. The peer pressure and judgment eventually was accepted and then likewise reflected in his life.

The interesting thing about this, and after going back to this town as an adult and bumping into some of the old 'IN' crowd, is that those who I remember that needed that feeling of superiority by judging those who were less fortunate in physical appearance or money... Well they became drunks, drug addicts, gas station attendants, divorcees, and simply riddled with problems. Those I met in school that did not judge others and were considered the nice kids, they grew and flourished with good jobs, family, etc. etc. (LOL, and no, I don't have issue with gas station attendants as I've been one before - I was simply making a point using a low paying job.)

So looking back, all those who were voted 'Most likely to succeed' because they were popular, are not necessarily living happy lifestyles. The ones who were class presidents due to popularity, acted the same way in college and ended up worse off then those who they used to judge. It's sort of funny how it all worked out and of course I'm just using this as an example because I remember it clearly.

So, observing life for what it is, I've seen time and time again where ill-will, burning bread, and judgment of others has a ripple effect on oneself. Condemning your brother is likewise condemning yourself. Those thoughts become things and no matter who it is, it almost always comes back where it started.

The scriptures teach us about judgment as well and I'll paraphrase' 'Judge not lest ye be judged', the casting of the first stone, the sliver in the eye of another when there's a log in our own. There's probably a ton of examples which would support the title of this thread.

People who are happy or content within themselves, usually aren't the ones to judge. Judgment usually comes from those who suffer from discontent and they recognize their own inferiority in others, building that desire to feel superior by hurting or judging others. It's a false sense of superiority that doesn't last. It's no different than snorting a line of coke... It may make you feel superior for a moment but the after effects of what you are doing to your body will show themselves later on in life and superiority becomes inferiority.

As adults, I think we judge more often because of our own inadequacies and not because of anything else. I also think that we cannot escape the wrath of our own judgments on our fellow human beings. As we judge others, the same sword will be used to judge us.

Judgment, whether it be based on religion or whatever else is something we should all work hard on getting over and past. Making a decision on whether or not to hire someone as an employee is not a judgment. If you are the employer and you don't like the how the person carries themselves and you say to yourself, "this guy is useless", even though you didn't speak those words directly to the individual, there's an energy that comes from you that has a lasting effect. It's also interesting that the judge is usually effected more by the judgment then the person who is being judged.

We can change the world if we change our perception of it and change our perception of our fellow human beings. Judge not. The ego, the super-self, the self who we are not is doing the judging and gradually, with practice, we inadvertently become our ego and likewise the judgment we so carelessly gave to others.

So to break this bad habit, I believe it takes being able to separate oneself from one's ego-self and possibly letting ego go altogether and just be yourself not judging others. It's tough. We've evolved and held high the ego of humans for so long and it's not really been all that positive for humanity or for the universe. Eliminate ego and we eliminate the need to judge others and ourselves.


Well said. By making negative judgments of others, we attempt to elevate our own self esteem, but it's a house built on sand. And it is a hard habit to break, too.

One "trick" I practice (not always with success) is that when I feel the inclination to negatively judge another person, I try to make myself find something sincerely "good" about the person. For some folks, the "ability to see goodness" or "the divine spark" in others seems to be a strong, natural ability. Some really have a gift of seeing others "through the Loving Eyes of God".

I don't think we can all reach that level, but we could all improve a bit, don't you think?

rebecca
sneer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 04:38 pm
@Infovore,
Well, Justin hit the nail to the head. After I became aware of the stupidity of this habit(however my start point was aggression and individual freedom) I realized people I know waste a lot of time and energy to do that. My personal conclusion was, such judgement is enslaving and destroying.
I've just posted the whole calypso to my blog (and added, as brilliant an excerpt from Sarek, thanks).
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 03:02 am
@Infovore,
Infovore;94746 wrote:
Greetings once again.

Apologies for not being too familiar with the rest of the forums, resulting in me posting here everytime. But nevertheless, I feel them fit to be in this compartment of the site.

This is just something I have been pondering about lately due to interactions with the various personalities in my surroundings.

The underlying question to this thread is: What causes us to judge people or inversely be judged? In correlation to indivual perspectives of thought, words and actions.

Look forward to your responses and thank you in advance.
It's probaly our instinct to convey information, which probaly roots in the flock instinct.
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 05:08 am
@sneer,
sneer;127977 wrote:
Well, Justin hit the nail to the head. After I became aware of the stupidity of this habit(however my start point was aggression and individual freedom) I realized people I know waste a lot of time and energy to do that. My personal conclusion was, such judgement is enslaving and destroying.

One news item which has particularly stuck in my mind ever since I heard it in October 2006 is as follows. I haven't verified its authenticity, so consider it as a hypothetical case. (Alternatively, consider some shocking item on today's news. There are bound to be plenty to choose from, if, unlike me, you can bear to listen to much of it. Or consider some well-known shocking event in history. Also, one does not need to take an extreme case, but it can help to focus attention. If it helps, consider a less extreme case; or a more extreme case; whichever you prefer.)

A teenage girl started at a new school. On her first day, some of the other girls asked her what kind of music she liked. She replied "hard rock", or words to that effect, and mentioned AC/DC in particular. She was not to know that the gang culture dominating that school decreed that the only correct kinds of music to like are chart pop and gangsta rap. For her heinous sin, a gang of three girls stabbed her in the eye. (I forget whether it was with a knife or a screwdriver. Fortunately she didn't lose the eye.)

As several other people have already done in this thread, you make a general claim which implies, among many other things, that if I say that stabbing that girl in the eye for liking AC/DC was a wrong thing to do, then I am stupid, acting out of habit, wasting time and energy, and trying to enslave and destroy somebody (presumably the girl who stabbed the other girl in the eye).

Going by other responses in the thread (apparently all of them, with the single honourable exception of kennethamy) , it would seem, variously, that in making my moral judgement: I am merely making a rule about what is "socially acceptable"; I am merely filtering out people I do not want to associate with; I am doing it to make myself feel better, or to feel superior to another; I am behaving like an animal, in a way which is to be explained away in a few words by means of a boilerplate appeal to neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory; I am judging myself (as in the title of the thread); I am vibrating negative energy; I am (perhaps) showing a lack in myself, making a judgement based on my own thoughts (is that bad?), or being influenced by others, or betraying my unhappiness or discontent, or recognising my own inferiority, or trying to hurt somebody (not a bad thing, presumably), proceeding only from "ego" (who says?); I am being self-absorbed, too conscious (is that a bad thing?), making a groundless judgement (so all judgements are groundless now, and can be judged to be so without argument?), concerned with the "trivial", typifying "ME society"; at best, perhaps (according to ogden) performing "an important social function" (I hadn't realised I was so grand!); or attempting to elevate my self-esteem. (There's no argument that it needs elevating, but I think that's beside the point!)

However, you (and the other respondents) would not judge me for any of that, would you? So presumably it's cool with you, which leads me to wonder why you even consider such evil moralistic behaviour worthy of mention. Unless, that is, you consider self-contradiction to be cool, also?

Is everyone now innocent except the judge?
sneer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:25 am
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;137457 wrote:

if I say that stabbing that girl in the eye for liking AC/DC was a wrong thing to do, then I am stupid, acting out of habit, wasting time and energy, and trying to enslave and destroy somebody (presumably the girl who stabbed the other girl in the eye).


yes, your "judgement" is doing nothing good in fact. Or nothing at all.
another thing is , you are "judging" without any basic knowledge what really happened. Press news is something closer to rumour, as far as there are commercials in newspapers and there is a mob that is paying for blockbuster.

But, going back to the discussion: my understanding of the matter that was discussed was not related to "hard" judgements. Societies must stigmatize wrong individuals and harmful behaviours, and such "judgement" I guess is not being discussed here.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:30 am
@melonkali,
melonkali;104156 wrote:
Well said. By making negative judgments of others, we attempt to elevate our own self esteem, but it's a house built on sand. And it is a hard habit to break, too.

One "trick" I practice (not always with success) is that when I feel the inclination to negatively judge another person, I try to make myself find something sincerely "good" about the person. For some folks, the "ability to see goodness" or "the divine spark" in others seems to be a strong, natural ability. Some really have a gift of seeing others "through the Loving Eyes of God".

I don't think we can all reach that level, but we could all improve a bit, don't you think?

rebecca


So you think that when an employer refuses to hire a well-known thief and liar (negative judgments) all he is doing is to attempt to elevate his own self-esteem? Suppose his self-esteem does not need elevating?
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:17 am
@sneer,
sneer;137508 wrote:
yes, your "judgement" is doing nothing good in fact. Or nothing at all.

What good, if any, would you say is done by your judgement that making moral judgements is "enslaving and destroying"?

My own answer, if I were in your shoes, would be along the lines that making a certain kind of moral judgement can enslave and destroy people; and that enslaving and destroying people is bad; and that it is sometimes good to try to stop people doing bad things to one another.

But what would you say? (From what you've said so far, I'm unable to guess where you would disagree with my preceding paragraph.)

(By the way - this is strictly beside the point - I would hazard a guess that I have at least as much personal cause as anyone else on Earth to know, at first hand, at second hand, and at third hand, the horrifying damage that can be done by overzealous and incorrigible moral judgements.)
sneer;137508 wrote:
another thing is , you are "judging" without any basic knowledge what really happened. Press news is something closer to rumour, as far as there are commercials in newspapers and there is a mob that is paying for blockbuster.

Is there some reason why you cannot, as I requested, "consider it as a hypothetical case"?

(Do you not understand the useful role that can be played by hypothetical cases or "thought experiments" in a philosophical discussion? I would not have thought that it needed explaining.)
sneer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 12:24 pm
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;137533 wrote:

(Do you not understand the useful role that can be played by hypothetical cases or "thought experiments" in a philosophical discussion? I would not have thought that it needed explaining.)


but you tried to authenticate your story, what for, then? wanted cheat us? Or rather you're doing this typical abuse of "judgement" we are speaking about?
Your statement makes nothing, don't you see? One case is (this one if consider the situation as hypothetical) when judgement is obvious, another one, if it's not obvious. In the second case only those, who know very closely and in very detail all circumstances, are eligible to judge.
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 01:50 pm
@sneer,
sneer;137578 wrote:
but you tried to authenticate your story

I have no idea what you mean. Do you mean that I believed the story as it was told in the news? I did believe it (making all due allowance for all the obvious possible sources of error or deliberate misrepresentation), but I went to some trouble to explain that the possibility of its falsehood did not seem to me to be relevant to the argument. (I enlarge on this point, as well as casting some doubt on it, below.) I suspect you may simply need to look up the meaning of the word "authenticate" in a dictionary.
sneer;137578 wrote:
what for, then? wanted cheat us? Or rather you're doing this typical abuse of "judgement" we are speaking about?

I will not prolong this discussion, because you have rapidly become abusive, but I will persist for just a little longer, in case the red mist clears from your eyes.
sneer;137578 wrote:
Your statement makes nothing, don't you see? One case is (this one if consider the situation as hypothetical) when judgement is obvious, another one, if it's not obvious. In the second case only those, who know very closely and in very detail all circumstances, are eligible to judge.

I'm afraid I cannot even parse that. But I can tell from the last sentence that you are still completely missing my point, which is another reason for not prolonging this unprofitable exchange for much longer.

I think I will try just this one more time (because I don't want to keep rewording something which I think I already put quite clearly enough):

For the sake of argument - do you know what that means? - just assume, or pretend, that the story in the news was as I said it was. Of course, any actual situation is ambiguous or uncertain; of course, mistakes can be made (Don Quixote tilting at windmills), and/or there can be infinitely subtle deception, and/or self-deception. An actual situation can be misrepresented as a fictional or illusory situation in, I imagine, infinitely many ways. Try, if possible (see next paragraph) to put all that in brackets, and attend to the situation as presented, regardless of its factual or fictional or illusory status. Consider the moral judgement I have associated with the factual or fictional or illusory situation as presented. The situation is a possible one; surely that is enough for a discussion? Credit me with enough sense to allow for the possibility of lies, self-deception, misunderstanding, and so on, and to attach to my own moral judgement of a situation all the ambiguity and uncertainty which attaches to the situation itself (just as you would do yourself, I hope - although you do not seem to be making much of an effort in my case!).

Perhaps (and here you might have a real point) this is not even possible in principle (in which case my "hypothetical situation" or "thought experiment" is tendentious, and may practically beg the question). Perhaps, such is the subtlety, ambiguity, and uncertainty of all human affairs, and so untrustworthy is our judgement (I am sure we all see plenty of evidence of this untrustworthiness, at least in others if not in ourselves, possibly every day of our lives), that we absolutely cannot ever be in a position to make any moral judgement whatsoever, and therefore my asking you to accept as true an unambiguously presented situation is unfair, and may even seem to you like a red rag to a bull, explaining your somewhat abusive response.

To elaborate just a little further: perhaps you are maintaining that all human relationships (including the relationship of a girl sticking a knife or a screwdriver in another girl's eye because of her taste in music) are so inherently ambiguous or ambivalent or radically uncertain (like the well-being of Schroedinger's cat) that the uncertainty we must take into account, when presuming to make moral judgements (or any other kind of judgement), simply cannot be described as a probability distribution over a number of different possible cases, exactly one of which is actually the case (however much or little we know about which case it is, e.g. "whodunnit").

I do not think that that is true for a moment, but it is not an unreasonable position to take, so I think I should pause and ask you if that is the position which you are in fact taking, or if the grounds for your objection are in fact something entirely different. As for myself, probably the main reason why I describe myself as a political and moral liberal is that I am at least as concerned as you are (and on the evidence so far, a good deal more concerned!) with the uncertainty of human perception and judgement (especially when it is exercised by those in positions of power and authority). But somehow I don't think that that is going to satisfy you at all.

Re-reading your post yet again (especially the last sentence), I see that you do allow that those "in the know" can be in a position to (a) know what really went on, and (b) make a moral judgement about it. Fine! Then we are in agreement. Please, then, accept, for the sake of argument, the hypothetical situation that we are in a position to know exactly what happened. What, then, of the moral judgment? I made it clear right from the start that that was what I meant us to consider; all this added argument is unnecessary (and quite tiring!).
 

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