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The philosophical conception of god in the age of reason and science.

 
 
Squeakybro
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 01:45 pm
INTELLECTUAL IDIOTS (MANS SYSTEM OF BELIEF)(CARNAL MIND)
2 Cor 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Matt 11:25
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
John 6:61
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
Matt 11:6
6 "And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."
Matt 12:37
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matt 18:3
3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Col 2:8
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
John 5:38-39
38 "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
1 Tim 6:3-4
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
Rom 16:18
18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Matt 13:14-15
14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'
Rom 3:18
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Luke 1:50
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
1 Cor 1:26
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
Rom 11:25
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Heb 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
2 Pet 2:18-19
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
1 Cor 2:1-14
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 9:39
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind."
Rom 11:8
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."
Luke 16:8
8 "So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.
(NKJ)

xxChristians are going to lose lots of carnal arguements to intellectuals. This is how they are separated, the sheep from the goats. But those who have lots of human wisdom also have lots of deception. Because to come to the Holy Spirit it is required to purge the carnal wisdom and have faith in the verses. Because the intellect is of the flesh and human wisdom. But faith is of the verses and strength to endure the humiliation by the intellectuals. An intellectual has to be right at all cost, and their arguement will waver back and forth until they feel they have won. But remember God has made foolish the wisdom of man. He who is from God speaks the Words of God(verses). Man is glorified on earth, but Christians will be glorified in the resurrection.

Heb 12:3
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
(NKJ)


RATIONAL MIND
Mark 2:6-8
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Luke 5:21-22
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
(NKJ)

xxThe one big problem with the rational mind(reasoning out things) is that they assume that they know the truth about everything already. So they start out in their thinking with the assumption that they can know. But what does the Word of God say: unless you become as a little child, you will by no means enter the kingdom of God. And a little child just believes everything you tell them. Well that is what the Word of God says, just believe what the Word tells you. In reality the Word is saying believe it first and then God will open your understanding. But the rational mind says dont believe nothing until you have good reason behind it. This is the difference between accepting it on faith, and reasoning it out according to mans wisdom. The Word accually says to first repent then believe in the gospel. It doesnt say reason it out until it says what you want it to. To many have a pre-conceived idea planted by some man before they open the bible. Then they search to find something that supports their already pre-conceived idea.


Mark 1:15
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
(NKJ)


1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(NKJ)



0 Replies
 
Squeakybro
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 05:58 pm
GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR
2 Cor 5:18
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God(Father) commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator(Father).
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ(Jesus), the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ(Jesus) is God(Father).
Eph 2:10
10 For we are His(Father) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God(Father) prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 3:8-11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God(Father) who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God(Father) might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He(Father) accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Col 1:13-20
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His(Father) love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
17 And He(Father) is before all things, and in Him(Father) all things consist.
18 And He(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He(Jesus) may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him(Jesus) all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him(Father) to reconcile all things to Himself(Father), by Him(Jesus), whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His(Jesus) cross.
Rev 4:11
11 "You are worthy, O LORD(Father), to receive glory and honor and power; for You(Father) created all things, and by Your(Father) will they exist and were created."
Mark 10:6
6 "But from the beginning of the creation, God(Father) 'made them male and female.'
Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His(Father) invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His(Father) eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
John 5:37-40
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me(Jesus), has testified of Me(Jesus). You have neither heard His(Father) voice at any time, nor seen His (Father) form.
38 "But you do not have His(Father) word abiding in you, because whom He(Father) sent, Him(Jesus) you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me(Jesus).
40 "But you are not willing to come to Me(Jesus) that you may have life.
Rom 11:32-36
32 For God(Father)has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God(Father)! How unsearchable are His(Father) judgments and His(Father) ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord(Jesus)? Or who has become His(Jesus) counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him(Jesus) and it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him(Father) and through Him(Jesus) and to Him(Father) are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
(NKJ)

THROUGH CHRIST---REASON FOR WAS CHRIST
xxxThe deffinition of through- is reason for. So God created everything through or for the reason of Jesus. God created everything for Jesus sake.

Heb 1:1-6
1 God(Father), who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His(Father) Son(Jesus), whom He(Father) has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He(Father) made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His(Father) glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His(Father) power, when He(Jesus) had by Himself(Jesus) purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty(Father) on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He(Jesus) has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He(Father) ever say: "You(Jesus) are My(Father) Son(Jesus), today I(Father) have begotten You(Jesus)"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He(Jesus) shall be to Me(Father) a Son"?
6 But when He(Father) again brings the firstborn(Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says: "Let all the angels of God(Father) worship Him(Jesus)."
2 Cor 3:4
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God(Father).
Gal 4:7
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God(Father) through Christ(Jesus).
Phil 4:7
7 and the peace of God(Father), which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Phil 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God(Father) through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:21
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God(Father) was in Christ(Jesus) reconciling the world to Himself(Father), not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)

xxx God the Father done all the creating. God the Father sent His Son Jesus to pay for our sins. And to be an example of how to worship God the Father in the right Spirit. God created Jesus first before anything else. Then God had someone to love. God had someone to give to, but Jesus didnt have anyone that He could give to. So God created everything else through Jesus or for Jesus. The heavens and the earth were created for Jesus. Now to purchase them Jesus had to die on the cross. We all have to prove ourselves to God. Jesus proved Himself, and made the way that we can prove ourselves.
GOD EVEN CREATED JESUS
John 17:5
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me(Jesus) together with Yourself(Father), with the glory which I(Jesus) had with You(Father) before the world was.
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
Heb 3:1-4
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
(NKJ)

Isa 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(KJV)

0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2014 10:54 pm
@prothero,
In order to answer your question, it's necessary to review the assumed contradictions between the old world view and the new world view.

Quote:
a)- the earth was young
b)- the earth is ancient 4.5 billion yrs and the universe 14 billion years


Both are conjectures. In reality no one knows the age of the earth.

The accepted 4.5 million years is an age that can't be scientifically verified.

This age is given by one and "solo" radiometric method. Unfortunately, in order to verify the accuracy of the radiometric method, another different method must be used in order to confront the radiometric method and "verify" both results.

Without this "verification", even when the radiometric method seems to be plausible, it can't be trusted as accurate, neither as valid.

You might argue a lot in defense of the radiometric method, but following the rules established by the scientific method, technically and literally the radiometric measures lack of verification.

So, it is the same saying a young earth and an old earth (same applies with the universe) because both sources lack of verifiable means.

Then, you can say without doubt, that the new world view "assumes" that the earth is such and such years old. If you establish the assumption as a fact, then you are proving your point as invalid.

Quote:
a)- The species were fixed and specially created
b)- species are not fixed and mass extinctions and emergence of new species occurs


Well, you "have" to prove and show that from fish the canine was originated, in order to say that species are not fixed.

When you talk of new species, are you saying like a Chihuahua incompatible to have offspring with a Saint Bernard, even thru artificial insemination?

Quote:
a)- The earth was the center of the universe
b)- the earth is an ordinary planet around an ordinary star in no special location


The new world view seems more correct, but the old one still is scientifically valid. Believe me or not, when using the Doppler Effect on far away stars and galaxies, the whole appear to be going away from us. Wherever you point the Doppler Effect in far away constellations, galaxies, stars, they appear to be going away from us. We must be located at a center in order for this phenomenon to happen. Unless the Doppler Effect doesn't work the way is supposed to work at a certain limit.

Quote:
a)- Man was the crown and purpose of creation.
b)- Man is just another and recent species who recently appeared and evolved from lower primates


Oh man... you ARE in trouble.

Here, the majority of dudes affirm that the theory of evolution has never implied that the current generations come from worst, simpler and inferior species. Your statement says that we -humans- come from "lower primates".

I guess they will change their mind in order to justify your ideas.

Quote:
a)- The universe was 3 story, heaven, earth and underworld
b)- The universe is unimaginably vast and there is no location for heaven or hell


This point of yours is void, and the old world view stands, there is nothing but heaven (cosmos in general) and earth (when talking in specific about us). You are comparing computers with bananas when you have presented this point the way you did it.

Quote:
a)- Natural events were unexplainable mysteries
b)- Nature is perceived as operating according to fixed immutable laws and revealed religion and supernatural intervention are largely rejected.


Peanuts. Science is full of theorist fantasies, like the existence of time, parallel universes, black holes, white holes, wormholes, and much more. When you ask their explanation, they seem to be for them mysteries to be solved by future generations... Lol.

There is no winner in this point as well.

I guess you must need to review the extravagant ideas found in science, the verification of the methods used for measurements, the contradictory data given by instruments, and well, lots of things that at the end give as a result fantastic, imaginary and superfluous theories similar to the religious views about the universe.

The only observed difference between both views about the points mentioned by you is that religion is backed up with a creator, while the theories of science -which are not "science itself"- are backed up with pieces of paper full of abstract mathematics.

0 Replies
 
pst
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 12:50 am
The Universe itself is a conception of God which does not conflict with the modern worldview.

Atheists and Nihilists say that God cannot exist because the Universe is an uncaring, unknowing, natural wasteland which operates according to fixed immutable laws. However, no one bothers to tell them to look up from the pages of philosophy they are reading, and to recognize that PEOPLE are very much a component of the observable Universe. People are not an uncaring, unknowing natural wasteland which operate according to fixed immutable laws. They can have maternal instinct, can learn from mistakes, can be charitable in times of bounty, and can change the rules by which they live frequently. Atheists and Nihilist philosophers forget that PEOPLE are very much a part of the universe that they are describing - and at a bare minimum, the existence of people as a part of the universe proves the Godless philosophy wrong.

At a bare minimum we know that the Universe contains some law and some order, because the planets remain in their orbits, and because humans possess a memory which allows them to perform tasks more easily the second time around. A universe without some law and some order would be so chaotic that it couldn't even be described by brownian motion, because brownian motion is at least governed by speed. This proves much of the philosophy taught in ivy league schools completely false.

If a pharmaceutical researcher stumbles upon a drug that saves 10,000 lives then that means that simultaneously, the researcher deserves our respect for their discovery and hard work, and that the Universe allowed a potential cure previously unknown to man to be brought into existence. The God that is the Universe gave us the disease, the researcher, the struggle to find the cure, and the cure itself. Or if you find a moral obligation to separate the components of the Universe which are 'good to you' versus 'bad to you', you may separate the universe into those natural processes, people, and actions that do you well, and those natural processes, people, and actions that do you evil. But by this method, you will arrive at the conclusion that my God and my Devil are not comprised of exactly the same components as "Mark's" God and Devil, or "Nancy's" God and Devil. There must, however, be a great deal of overlap among our collective conceptions of God and the Devil, or societies would never function and would collapse before they ever formed. One might venture to surmise that perhaps it is the bastardization of a successful society's conception of God and the Devil - what is good to you, versus bad to you - which leads to societal collapse in the first place.

I am of the belief that you can change many of the laws of the Universe that surround you through your actions and your words. That evil prevails when the good do nothing. But that it is not enough for the good to do something, the good prevails when it has the wisdom to target those areas in which evil is most pestilent, and a significant, meaningful blow may be dealt to it with the highest magnitude of outcome.

In terms of why PHD scientists teach that they 'haven't found God yet'.

Testable science cannot and would not ever validate theism, because by its very nature it is limited to describing a subset of lab experiments which are not all inclusive to the experience of our reality.

The Universe has no objective center - unlike mathematics which has a definite numberline 'origin' and unlike scientific experiments which are encapsulated in the box which is the 'system' being studied. The true Universe (not its partial image portrayed in all of scientific literature) comprises the entire world's people and natural systems. Put another way, the number of things which are objectively known by science [or even good business intel for that matter] is so exceedingly small in comparison to the the number of things which are subjectively 'known' by mankind, and the number of things existent in the universe outside of man's purview, that science phd's are often laughed at for their ignorance when they enter industry.

To describe God in the age of reason and science, it is helpful to counter with a metaphor from the bible:
The bible says that man was made in God's image. Man is himself a mini universe, or at least his consciousness and the ecosystem of his body is.

Will you deny that man has a will, a purpose, a knowledge, and a power. Will you deny that all of mankind has a will, a purpose, a knowledge, and a power. Will you deny that if the speck of mankind, which is a grain of sand in the universe, and a component of the whole universe has a will, a purpose, a knowledge, and a power - that the larger universe as a whole lacks more than its components. That the whole is less than the part.

InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 01:50 am
@pst,
pst wrote:
The God that is the Universe...

So, for you God is the Universe.

Ok.

Why not just go with the word "universe"? Using any other word seems superfluous.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 01:51 am
@pst,
Quote:
People are not an uncaring, unknowing natural wasteland which operate according to fixed immutable laws. They can have maternal instinct, can learn from mistakes, can be charitable in times of bounty, and can change the rules by which they live frequently.


Can...but often don't ! That's why "God" is a useful invention which captures the ideal.
pst
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 11:17 am
@InfraBlue,
"Why not just go with the word "universe"? Using any other word seems superfluous"

Why describe the entirety of God in one word, when a single word's meaning can easily be hijacked, when I have 65000 characters to form a coherent conception.


pst
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 11:33 am
@fresco,
"Can...but often don't ! That's why "God" is a useful invention which captures the ideal."

If the sun has no name, and I invent the word "sun" to give it a name, and someone chooses to describe the sun improperly, does that negate the fact that the actual sun exists?

If people need a sliver of hope to make the world a better place and happier to live in, and there is a conception which allows that - then speaking about the thing which makes the world better does not make it an ideal. It just means there's a long waiting list.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 12:48 pm
@pst,
False analogy.
Of course ALL concepts "exist". What we say "exists" is relative to our needs as functioning cognate animals saddled with a concept of "fate" in what is quite probably a meaningless universe. So yes, the concept of "God" is a useful device for those that need it as a palliative against the void (ideal or otherwise) and "God"certainly has existence for them. But since we (and the rest of life) all need "the Sun", the relativistic aspect of existence in that case can be ignored.
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 03:07 pm
"God" is the Universe.

God's Language is Math.

God's appearance is All The World.

God's creations are created in God's Image.

For an example, stars and black holes "procreate"; volcanoes and soils "procreate", females and males "procreate". Different scales and different designs for the same creation/destruction cycle.

Our ignorance tells us a lot about this God.

Bacteria is naive, we are naive - so too is God.

God is expanding, evolving and changing, but its laws forever remain the same.

God is not only a design, but an Unfinished Design.

Everything we call "human" is not even "human" - we are 90% plant and fungi. Made of water, electricity and heat. Atoms, particles and energy. Mass, subatomic form and subatomic animation.

We see all the world with the eyes of this Universe: http://www.grandunification.com/jpgs/Helix_Nebula.jpg

"God" is not "one thing" - God is "everything".
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 03:24 pm
@pst,
pst wrote:

"Why not just go with the word "universe"? Using any other word seems superfluous"

Why describe the entirety of God in one word, when a single word's meaning can easily be hijacked, when I have 65000 characters to form a coherent conception.

Well, I was referring to words, not conceptions. If there's a heavily loaded word like "God" whose meaning is hijacked, why not avoid it altogether especially in light of the fact that you have another less loaded word, "universe"?
pst
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2014 10:37 am
@fresco,
Some philosophic concepts lead citizens to follow the orders of genocidal murderers like Stalin and Mao. When ideologies are standardized and absolute in a society, you invariably find those societies more brutal within their own ranks. Those societies which hold life is meaningless are the most needlessly brutal.
Doesn't that tell you that we are not meant to delude ourselves into thinking life is meaningless? Or that there is only one way to view the world?
Concepts of God are not just a palliative, they visibly effect the functioning of societies by effectively communicating the reality that each of our lives mean something to someone, and that what we do on earth matters in a larger sense. Nihilists are the opposite of what they profess, and rather than having superior perceptions, are blind to the ramifications of their actions on others and the larger world. They are trapped in selfish, short sighted thinking, incapable of comprehending the true meaning of literary phrases such as incarnation, eternal life, and the second death. You have to spell everything out for a nihilist, but you shouldn't spell anything out for them, because they use what they are taught against those that help them.
At any given moment, someone somewhere has to deal with the sun in order to reappropriate its energy in a useful form for the rest of us, but an individual certainly can live without ever personally knowing sunlight, though their life will not be happier for it. So too with God. You benefit because someone else perceives God.
pst
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2014 12:15 pm
@InfraBlue,
Because my conception of God requires that you use that word or a translation of it
The limited contexts in which you hear the word 'universe' leads to an incomplete archetype in the reader's mind. The word universe is generally referring to a static entity, but the real universe as it exists off the page is not static. It includes additional aspects which do not appear in common or formal definitions.

A Godless universe is simply the word universe. But a God that is the universe is something completely different in the readers mind.

Picture Venus the goddess
Picture Venus the planet
Contextual modifiers are necessary in this discussion. A conception of God must refer to him.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2014 02:17 pm
@pst,
Quote:
Some philosophic concepts lead citizens to follow the orders of genocidal murderers like Stalin and Mao
or Joshua (10).

Theism has neither a monopoly on empathy nor on genocide. It is merely one more cognitive structure which serves to ameliorate our failure to control our destiny. Indeed "empathy" may be merely a useful evolutionary trait which we acquire like other animals. The argument that "moral tendencies" require a divinity to account for them is facile.

But "believers" are not going to accept that there pre-suppositions are castles in the air. Their very sense of "self integrity" is dependent on such constructions despite the fact that minor ad hoc embellishments to the structure can clearly lead to fanatical martyrdom. Intellectual "belief" may be fine for the minority, but like it or not, they have the responsibility of giving succour to the less intellectual majority who would use their beliefs to rationalize their parochial tribalism.
Squeakybro
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2014 08:25 pm
THE TRUTH IS THE VOICE OF JESUS, THE VOICE OF JESUS IS THE REVELATIONS OF JESUS CHRIST
Rev 3:20-22
20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."' "
John 18:37
37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
John 10:27-28
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:16
16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 8:31-32
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 17:17-23
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
(NKJ)
0 Replies
 
pst
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2014 09:34 pm
@fresco,
"Theism has neither a monopoly...." - fresco

To say that empathy exists and therefore God does not exist is a pretty ridiculous argument. To say that empathy has a good reason to exist and therefore God does not exist is even more ridiculous.

"But "believers" are not going to accept that..." - fresco

For your reasoning to be sound in this paragraph, you must ultimately support an isolationist, godless, anarchy where nobody has good reason to place trust in anyone. Does this sound like your idea of paradise?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2014 12:26 am
@pst,
Given the criminal level of chaos presided over by your mythical omniscient "caring entity", only a blinkered dreamer of "paradise" would accept your line of reasoning. The onus is on such dreamers to justify their arbitrary inventions, not on the unblinkered.

And speaking of justification, there's more justified trust between man and dog than between man and god. ! Benefits of mutual interaction at the evolutionary level is all the rationality needed.

Squeakybro
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2014 08:30 am
@fresco,
Thanks I needed a good example of an intellectual idiot.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2014 09:20 am
@Squeakybro,
Laughing
I note that despite Genesis 1:28, you are still single !
Squeakybro
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2014 03:59 pm
@fresco,
Broom hilda divorced me when I received my first revelation of Jesus. She couldn't handle it so God delivered me so I could do my work.
 

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