4-dimensional block universe and the nature of time

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A 4-D block universe is a construct originate from einstein theory of relativity, but some how serve as a nice toy model in the philosophy of time. The notion of a block is deceptive, but the general notion is that if you could some how reduce the whole 3-dimensionality of our universe to a 2- d slice, and that at each moment of time, there is a slice for that time, then by piling the "slices" in the order of time, you have a "block" universe. Now, this block is just there for all of eternality. What we preceive as the past, present, and future are points in this continuous block universe. In such a universe, "time" do not "flow". "tme" would be like the location of space. Suppose you are this super-being that could some how "look" at this continuous block, then you would literally see the past, present and future as locations in a continuous object.

I think this block universe view is superior to the view that time "flows".

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@vectorcube,

In this block theory, it is not time as in seconds that is measured but in light. That is the impression I get from, reading the post. Although time can be measured alongside the passage of light, that is not time in itself.

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@urangutan,

urangutan;81540 wrote:

Although time can be measured alongside the passage of light, that is not time in itself.

Not sure what "time in itself" really mean. In the model, time is just a just a degree of freedom in the block.

Here is a some reading material: The Philosophy of Time

Here is a nice summery:

2) The "Block Universe" View

"Physicists prefer to think of time as laid out in its entirety - a timescape, analogous to a landscape - with all past and future events located there together ... Completely absent from this description of nature is anything that singles out a privileged special moment as the present or any process that would systematically turn future events into the present, then past, events. In short, the time of the physicist does not pass or flow." --Paul Davies, "That Mysterious Flow" [/QUOTE]

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@vectorcube,

I can understand the concept of block universe but not applied to time.

If the light from our sun could be seen to its extent, then that block universe of light, is the extent of our known universe. Beyond that point we are not recognisable and in so are not a part of that universe.

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@urangutan,

urangutan;81556 wrote:

I can understand the concept of block universe but not applied to time.

I don` t think you do. Have you read the link?

Quote:

If the light from our sun could be seen to its extent, then that block universe of light, is the extent of our known universe. Beyond that point we are not recognisable and in so are not a part of that universe

.

So the picture you shouldn`t have is a block universe defined by the light cone of a particular event( eg: burst of light from sun).

What you ought to think of is a the universe as a block B. Every point in B is represented by ( x, y , z , t). Imagine the imagine of you sitting in a room, not moving, then x, y, z would be constant, but t would be different. In fact, You sitting could be represented by a line in B.

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@vectorcube,

Yes I did and though it makes sense to assume that this block encompasses, the known Universe, I cannot fathom how it can be "sliced" into time frames and observed. I can imagine that if time is infinite it occupies all, but as light cannot pass beyond the barrier of time, then how can one observe the future.

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@urangutan,

Quote:

Yes I did and though it makes sense to assume that this block encompasses, the known Universe,

Becareful. The block don` t contain the universe. The universe at a particular time is a slice of the block. It is a 4-d block after all.

Quote:

I cannot fathom how it can be "sliced" into time frames and observed.

Becareful. Nobody said anything about observing. I am not even sure how to observe it. We can ` t really observe 4-dimensions. Block universe is a model to think about things by simplification. A model is a toy that serves it`s purpose if it shows something of value to the thing it represents.

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@vectorcube,

"The universe at a particular time is a slice of the block". Until the point of now, is all the block can entertain, because "the block don't contain the universe". God is an entity, if it shows something of value to what it represents.

Light is the key to the cosmos, time is the door and gravity is the floor to the door.
On this side we have the universe

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@urangutan,

Have you seen this? Check it out.
YouTube - Conical Motion 1

YouTube - Conical Motion 3 - Walter Russell

YouTube - Conical Motion 4 - Walter Russell

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@urangutan,

urangutan;81579 wrote:

"The universe at a particular time is a slice of the block". Until the point of now, is all the block can entertain, because "the block don't contain the universe".

Well, the block represent the total history of the universe as well as the universe.

Quote:

Light is the key to the cosmos, time is the door and gravity is the floor to the door.
On this side we have the universe

No idea where you get this from.

---------- Post added 08-06-2009 at 12:20 PM ----------

justin wrote:

Have you seen this? Check it out.

I have no idea what those videos are about, or why it is relevant to the block universe. In the video, there is a movement from past to future, but the block universe is a universe that contains all time. It sounds like i am making stuff up, but it is very much part of analytic philosophy.

1 Reply

@vectorcube,

I have no idea what these videos are about either. Is it that each moment of space-time is defined as a conic section in the video?

1 Reply

@Holiday20310401,

Hi,

I think any proposed conceptual model of the universe has to encompass minimally all that we are experiencing - this includes awake and asleep experiences.

The holographic model seems more reasonable, since it maintains memory of all that is happened, but memory can fade over time. The future does not exist, other than potentiality. For example, you can watch the ocean and perceive two waves approaching each other, and recongnize that there is a potential for some event, but what the event might be is still to be determined.

The 4-D block universe, for me, does not seem to fit into my experiences, since it seems to express a future that is already established (i.e., no Free Will), and also does not take into account that time while one is asleep is a completely different experience than time while one is awake.

Also, the sense of the future time is much different from the sense of past time. So there has to be differentiation between past time and future time and of course now time - now time being either asleep or awake.

Rich

2 Replies

@richrf,

Rich, the problem with your statement is that the universe is not an equivalent context to any sort of 'everythingness'. Not even the word cosmos is.

We cannot encompass everythingness. Does the word everythingness even encompass such a context, does it even monize it?

1 Reply

@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401;81638 wrote:

Rich, the problem with your statement is that the universe is not an equivalent context to any sort of 'everythingness'. Not even the word cosmos is.

We cannot encompass everythingness. Does the word everythingness even encompass such a context, does it even monize it?

I guess universe then just needs to be defined:

Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Universe comprises everything that physically exists: the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter, energy and momentum, and the physical laws and constants that govern them. However, the term Universe may be used in slightly different contextual senses, denoting such concepts as the cosmos, the world or Nature.

I think once you begin talking about a 4-dimensional block universe, we are pretty much out of conventional definitions anyway.

But, for me, it is all unity. So something that explains well one should explain all:

Forget distinctions. Leap into the boundless and make it your home! [Chuang Tzu]

If our small mind, for some convenience, divide this... universe into parts-physics, biology, geology, astronomy, psychology, and so on - remember does not know it! [Richard Feynman]

Rich

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@vectorcube,

I just find the notion of an eternal perscpective (a point at which the past, present and future could all be viewed simultaneously) to be a violation of hard core common sense. It has profound implications with respect to novelty, creativity, freedom and moral responsiblity. It is a perspective while interesting as an imaginary device should only be adopted under the weight of imposing evidence and experience for which there is virtually none.

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@richrf,

richrf;81630 wrote:

Hi,

The holographic model seems more reasonable, since it maintains memory of all that is happened, but memory can fade over time. The future does not exist, other than potentiality.
Rich

In other words, time "flows" from past to future. How does this work? I have no idea.

---------- Post added 08-08-2009 at 11:54 PM ----------

prothero;81701 wrote:

I just find the notion of an eternal perscpective (a point at which the past, present and future could all be viewed simultaneously) to be a violation of hard core common sense. It has profound implications with respect to novelty, creativity, freedom and moral responsiblity. It is a perspective while interesting as an imaginary device should only be adopted under the weight of imposing evidence and experience for which there is virtually none.

I don ` t know about that. Einstein theory is a fully deterministic theory that works, and the underlying ontology seems to be that we are all little particles traveling in straight lines in 4-d space time.

0 Replies

@vectorcube,

vectorcube;81538 wrote:

A 4-D block universe is a construct originate from einstein theory of relativity, but some how serve as a nice toy model in the philosophy of time. The notion of a block is deceptive, but the general notion is that if you could some how reduce the whole 3-dimensionality of our universe to a 2- d slice, and that at each moment of time, there is a slice for that time, then by piling the "slices" in the order of time, you have a "block" universe. Now, this block is just there for all of eternality. What we preceive as the past, present, and future are points in this continuous block universe. In such a universe, "time" do not "flow". "tme" would be like the location of space. Suppose you are this super-being that could some how "look" at this continuous block, then you would literally see the past, present and future as locations in a continuous object.

I think this block universe view is superior to the view that time "flows".

I think it makes sense, mostly cause the Model is Divided nicely. Must be cause I like easy explanations. When I start thinking of ways of observation it hurts my head. I have a hard time learning complexity of space relation between these "layers". Same space, different times, but at the same time, all observable? :brickwall:

1 Reply

@Joe,

Time is a concept not a physical entity people. It has no effect on anything what so ever, no force, we made up a dimension for it cause we couldn't put it in the actually defines of a dimension, we called it "spatial dimension". Look at the wheeler-dewitt equation its what I majored in, this what I do for a living, its my day job.

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4-dimensional block universe and the nature of time

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