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Can We Survive Without Posterity

 
 
RDRDRD1
 
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 06:19 pm
The question is whether posterity is an essential component in the survival of any society? In other words, can any clan, tribe, community or nation flourish sustainably without heeding the role of posterity in all key planning and policy decision-making?

I have been pondering the notion of "fair share" in the sense that each generation in a society is entilted to some, but not all, of its resources to hand recognizing that it must also ensure an appropriate allocation for those generations to follow.

Posterity doesn't fit into our economic model of production and consumption because it creates a fetter on both. We have lost our understanding of the importance of posterity to our society, to our country. We no longer plan today for generations to come far in the future. We no longer look much beyond the next electoral cycle.

Protecting posterity is an act of collective consciousness and will. It is acknowledging that we're entitled to our fair share and no more. We can't have it all without depriving future generations of their fair share. To try to understand the idea of "fair share" imagine if our great, great, great grandparents had followed our path.

Imagine if our ancestors had two things - the ability to consume everything they could get their hands on and a blind indifference to the day when it was our turn to populate this country. Imagine if two or three generations had gone on a rapacious binge gobbling up the world's resources; going into serious deficit on renewables (emptying the oceans, logging off the forests, transforming farmland into desert) and fouling the environment. Then consider how their depredations might impact on your life today. I think that's beyond the imagination of all but the best science fiction writers but that's of no real matter. It's enough in any event to make the case for posterity and the concept of "fair share."

Does ignoring posterity transform us into 21st Century Easter Islanders only on a global scale?
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William
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 06:25 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;67231 wrote:
The question is whether posterity is an essential component in the survival of any society? In other words, can any clan, tribe, community or nation flourish sustainably without heeding the role of posterity in all key planning and policy decision-making?

I have been pondering the notion of "fair share" in the sense that each generation in a society is entilted to some, but not all, of its resources to hand recognizing that it must also ensure an appropriate allocation for those generations to follow.

Posterity doesn't fit into our economic model of production and consumption because it creates a fetter on both. We have lost our understanding of the importance of posterity to our society, to our country. We no longer plan today for generations to come far in the future. We no longer look much beyond the next electoral cycle.

Protecting posterity is an act of collective consciousness and will. It is acknowledging that we're entitled to our fair share and no more. We can't have it all without depriving future generations of their fair share. To try to understand the idea of "fair share" imagine if our great, great, great grandparents had followed our path.

Imagine if our ancestors had two things - the ability to consume everything they could get their hands on and a blind indifference to the day when it was our turn to populate this country. Imagine if two or three generations had gone on a rapacious binge gobbling up the world's resources; going into serious deficit on renewables (emptying the oceans, logging off the forests, transforming farmland into desert) and fouling the environment. Then consider how their depredations might impact on your life today. I think that's beyond the imagination of all but the best science fiction writers but that's of no real matter. It's enough in any event to make the case for posterity and the concept of "fair share."

Does ignoring posterity transform us into 21st Century Easter Islanders only on a global scale?


Hello RD, A most gracious welcome to this forum. I love the way you think.
William

---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

RD,
Hope you don't mind me calling you RD. The problem with prosperity as we define it, is it has no limits. It has a singularity that can be summed up in two words: Justifiable Greed.

Now the rationalization that supports that greed is "I deserve it." I'm smarter than you, I work harder than you; because you are stupid, because you are lazy, because you are ignorant, because you are a sinner you don't deserve to have the prosperity I have. That begins with nations to states, to people. It is the reality we have created and we are paying a big price for it. The advent of television and it's manipulative power is what has gotten it totally out of control.

William
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 05:08 pm
@William,
It is inappropriate to burden posterity with debts, but equally inappropriate to plan for them. The government should act in the interest of the people that it representes at any given time, within the constitutional bounds of government. If the voters want to begin x building project, e.g., not to benefit them, but to give a better future to their children, fine, but we can't sacrafice the rights of living people for imaginary future generations. Think of the 'green revolution.' Saving the earth for our children...by transforming middle class westerners into serfs. No thank you.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 07:33 pm
@RDRDRD1,
Thanks, William and, since you asked, please call me Rob. The post WWII generations are the first of their kind, the first who achieved both the numbers and the technology to utterly consume all the renewables and then exploit the residual stocks.

Take freshwater for example. When we got into industrial-scale agriculture we managed to greatly expand our food production but only with intensive irrigation. That, in turn, necessitated supplementing surface water and precipitation with groundwater, our aquifers.

Some of these aquifers are prehistoric, long since sealed off. Drain them and they go into a permanent state of empty. Others continue to collect surface water that makes its way into them. What we've ignored, to our peril, is the fact that these aquifers can only sustainably furnish groundwater at their normal 'recharge' rate. In some areas of intensive agriculture we've been pumping them out at ten times their recharge rate. The exhaustion problem is self-evident but we also have to consider those who have become dependent on food supplied by unsustainable irrigation. If an aquifer has a recharge rate of X but you've been drawing 10X from it for crop production, you are truly burning a candle at both ends.

Surface water resources have also been over exploited. Obama's energy czar, Mr. Chu, has asked Americans to imagine the end of agriculture in California. This is not some dark fantasy. This is but one example of our blind, arrogant selfishness and the self-destruction inherent in it.

BrightNoon, your logic is nihilistic and, for an American, astonishingly unpatriotic. Future generations are hardly imaginary, that's merely a fairly crass device to shirk responsibility. Much of your country's greatness today, the same greatness that has been unappreciated and squandered, was built by generations past who did have a firm and abiding respect for posterity. They had a vision of their America in the future and they wanted to provide for those future generations, including your own. You owe a great deal to those generations before you and, like them, a great deal to those generations to follow you. How arrogant and selfish for you to think otherwise. What is the net sum of your existence, to simply consume? Look around you. Where has that mentality brought your nation?

Incorporating the needs of future generations is a cornerstone of sustainability in our current lives. If you don't want to live sustainably, what is your alternative? We are eating the seed corn BrightNoon.

I see that you're a student at a college in Pennsylvania which leads me to assume you're fairly young. I'm not saying that as a slight. I did my undergrad in your country back when most of your society was still nervously enthusiastic about the war of the day, Vietnam. I am now about to turn 60. You, BrightNoon, will see days ahead that I will fortunately manage to avoid. To shamelessly steal from Dennis Miller, I'm of the generation that snagged all the seats on the last chopper out of Saigon.

Tom Brokaw wrote of my parents' generation as "The Greatest Generation." They managed to thread their way through the Great Depression, world war, the shift from an agrarian to an industrial economy, the post-war boom and the Cold War. My generation could, perhaps, be described as "The Blessed Generation" for we pretty much had it all. You will not have it as good, not by any measure. In fact your generation will be confronted with challenges that may actually eclipse those endured by the Greatest Generation. In the process I expect your generation will shed the "greed is good/wealth is virtue" mentality my generation so shamefully instilled in you.

I don't mean to harp but I wish you would become more aware, acutely aware of the world you stand to inherit and allow that reality to inform your opinions. After all, you're the one who will have to live with them at the end of the day.
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:14 pm
@RDRDRD1,
Rob, what do you think about desalination and pipelined water to drier climates and hydrosoding to produce precipitation among other things. From one old fart to another. Ha:a-ok:
Thanks,
William
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:31 pm
@RDRDRD1,
I have reservations about desalination based on the issues surrounding disposal of the salts, chemical contaminants and other residues. They have to be disposed of somewhere and in a manner that doesn't harm essential coastal marine life. They also consume a significant amount of energy which, at the moment, means fossil fuels.

In some cases, pipeline water is viable but it can be very expensive. It can also give rise to squabbles among neighbouring states. The Colorado basin states have this problem as do Florida, Georgia and South Carolina (I think it's SC) in the southeast.

Water is indeed becoming the new oil. Its value is appreciating rapidly. Just look at the activities of the World Water Council headed by companies like Vivendi looking to corner the market on freshwater supply and distribution in drought prone regions.

We North Americans have been more than a little spoiled when it comes to freshwater which we've taken as something of a God-given right. Unfortunately one of the immediate impacts of climate change is the disruption of precipitation patterns and seasonal distribution. Any farmer knows that a successful crop depends on the right amount of precipitation at the right times. Too much can be just as ruinous as too little.

I believe the best answer to the water problems in the American south is simple conservation. We Norte Americanos really do waste an awful lot of our freshwater resources. The shining example of that is Lake Las Vegas and the luxury community constructed around it. If you're looking for a bargain mansion, look no further. I think Credit Suisse got stuck holding a lot of empty paper on that venture, one of several mega projects it's come to regret. Seriously, Google it just for a window into how we lost our way.

Cheers

Rob
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:48 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;67874 wrote:
I have reservations about desalination based on the issues surrounding disposal of the salts, chemical contaminants and other residues. They have to be disposed of somewhere and in a manner that doesn't harm essential coastal marine life. They also consume a significant amount of energy which, at the moment, means fossil fuels.

In some cases, pipeline water is viable but it can be very expensive. It can also give rise to squabbles among neighbouring states. The Colorado basin states have this problem as do Florida, Georgia and South Carolina (I think it's SC) in the southeast.

Water is indeed becoming the new oil. Its value is appreciating rapidly. Just look at the activities of the World Water Council headed by companies like Vivendi looking to corner the market on freshwater supply and distribution in drought prone regions.

We North Americans have been more than a little spoiled when it comes to freshwater which we've taken as something of a God-given right. Unfortunately one of the immediate impacts of climate change is the disruption of precipitation patterns and seasonal distribution. Any farmer knows that a successful crop depends on the right amount of precipitation at the right times. Too much can be just as ruinous as too little.

I believe the best answer to the water problems in the American south is simple conservation. We Norte Americanos really do waste an awful lot of our freshwater resources. The shining example of that is Lake Las Vegas and the luxury community constructed around it. If you're looking for a bargain mansion, look no further. I think Credit Suisse got stuck holding a lot of empty paper on that venture, one of several mega projects it's come to regret. Seriously, Google it just for a window into how we lost our way.

Cheers

Rob


Rob, there is a lot of things we aren't doing because we can't afford to do it. I have often thought about what to do with all the salt. That is indeed a concern. Considering everything is predicated on our current system which is were the phrase "can we afford it" comes from. Have you ever given any thought to a compensation system that is not dependent on objective rarity.
William
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 10:29 pm
@RDRDRD1,
William I suspect there will be some technological fixes, some workarounds, but the question is cost. Who will carry the infrastructure costs? Do the states have enough to fund this sort of mega project? Will voters tolerate additional taxes? What of the water industry and its lobbyists? There are so many unknowns, uncertainties. The most important thing now is to get people in these most affected regions talking about this, getting useful and honest information out to them so that they can decide. You folks know how it's supposed to work - government of the people, by the people, for the people, right? Unless BrightNoon is right and it's government of the person, by the person, for the person. In that case you're hooped.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 12:56 am
@RDRDRD1,
Rob:
I think the current lack of planning for one's posterity is a result of the changing role of one's posterity. If we get all romantic about the days when people planned for posterity one has to realize that one's posterity ion those times was the way of making a living. Large families were common because the children worked to support the family as well. Planning for children was a reciprocal thing. PLan to give the children the family farm or business insured that you when elderly were also taken care of by those same kids. As the world industrialized more and more there was no longer a need for this sort of reciprocal material relationship, and as a result no only the material severed, but also the relationship itself. I understand that this thread seems to have a more generalized tangent where we as a people aren't planning for our posterity by consuming resources etc... however, if we have a very diminished personal relationship individually with our children and we have a very loose materially reciprocal relationship with them as well, how are we supposed to even think generationally?
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:00 am
@RDRDRD1,
But Goshis you overlook the fact that, through most of its history, American politics incorporated posterity as a relevant factor in both planning and policy.

It was probably 20-years ago that Bill Moyers presented an excellent, multi-part documentary series exploring the role posterity had for so many years played in America's body politic, how that had advanced the nation, how and why it had died out and when and if it might be restored. I wish PBS would dust the tapes from their archives and run it again because the message has clearly been lost now when that understanding is probably needed more than at any time in your nation's history.

We have to begin thinking beyond the next electoral cycle. You have to raise your head and look up to the horizon. Anyone my age can tell you it arrives much sooner than you ever imagined in your youth. When you embrace the role of posterity you immediately begin envisioning the world, the nation and the society you will be handing off to those who will follow you - your children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren.

These are not 'imaginary' generations, they're your immediate bloodline. You can do good for them but you can also cause them enormous harm and suffering. You have that choice to make and even simply ignoring that is to make a choice.

So yes, there is a familial dimension to posterity but that stands aside its societal and national dimensions. They are all linked.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:12 am
@RDRDRD1,
Rob:
Lol yeah I have a tendency to reduce things into major societal and cultural structure/systemic trends. I was not placing a value judgement on the trend simpl stating the trend. I understand that there are forward thinking people and I admire them for their efforts. I was not taking into account specific policy in any specific country. I am attempting to demonstrate that a changing family structure norm has possible societal effects that relate directly to the OP's question by giving it a possible direct underlying cause.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:17 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;67889 wrote:
William I suspect there will be some technological fixes, some workarounds, but the question is cost. Who will carry the infrastructure costs? Do the states have enough to fund this sort of mega project? Will voters tolerate additional taxes? What of the water industry and its lobbyists? There are so many unknowns, uncertainties. The most important thing now is to get people in these most affected regions talking about this, getting useful and honest information out to them so that they can decide. You folks know how it's supposed to work - government of the people, by the people, for the people, right? Unless BrightNoon is right and it's government of the person, by the person, for the person. In that case you're hooped.


Thank you so much Rob, you nailed it-COSTS! That is our problem. You and I both know when we were young, and it is probably still is today, a countries ecomomic structure was based on how much gold they had. Right? Gold was and probably still is that global standard. There is only so much gold and it is because of it's limitations is why we are in the fix we are in today. There is just not enough to go around.

That is why we say "can we afford to do it", which is what you are stating as to our limitations. We need to get off that foundation that limits us to do what we need to do, rather than what we can afford to do. That's why I asked if you had given any thought as to how to do that? Think of a benebolently controlled "point" system. We have that technology. A point system that is not based on anything, much less anything that is "rare".

Thanks,
William
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 12:10 pm
@RDRDRD1,
William, I just come back to the point that the outcome of the predicament facing the American south will be decided by public opinion. In difficult economic times, decisions become a lot tougher and priorities turn narrower.

There's a lot of wealth in public opinion which explains why so much is spent on trying to shape it, sometimes even to delude it. Look at the efforts RJ Reynolds made to discredit the link between smoking and cigarettes or the lengths to which Big Oil and Big Coal have gone to sow doubt on anthropogenic global warming.

I see no reason to believe the freshwater issue in your southern states will not be treated along these same lines. That is why it is vital for people in your region to begin speaking out on this, for someone to get out impartial and honest information to the public.

My country is seen as blessed with an abundance of freshwater and yet it has been Canadians who have for two decades spearheaded the international effort to address the looming water crisis, even to have freshwater declared a basic, human right. Yes, we may have abundant water resources but we have come to understand how remarkably fragile that resource is, even here, and how it absoutely needs to be safeguarded. It's why our minds reel to see lakes built around casinos in the middle of the desert or entire cities spring up in regions that can barely support cactus. It's tantamount to believing you can defy gravity.

When we're all focused on mad Islamists hiding in caves plotting away, it's hard to get issues such as freshwater on the public's radar screens. But, trust me, if you as a society don't come up with the very best solutions for yourselves, somebody else will come up with a worse, far more expensive answer once your best options are foreclosed.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

Oh, and Goshis, sorry but I didn't mean to ignore you. With your background in anthropology you'll have a better grounding in the role of posterity than most. Do you think we can avoid becoming modern day Easter Islanders without restoring this sort of balancing force to our societies?
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 01:01 pm
@RDRDRD1,
I think we are very much in danger of going into a civilization collaps without some very forward thinking. And personally I do believe we are responsible for the continuance of our species (in the extreme event) and at the very least we are responsible to give our posterity the best life that we can given our current knowledge of possible futures. Jared Diamond wrote about exactly this in His book Collapse, where he gives historic and prehistoric causal material and environmental examples of the collapse of civilizations including Easter Island, very inspiring.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 03:56 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;68051 wrote:

I see no reason to believe the freshwater issue in your southern states will not be treated along these same lines. That is why it is vital for people in your region to begin speaking out on this, for someone to get out impartial and honest information to the public.


I am not talking about southern states in particular. I am talking about globally. But being that you did localize it, look at California, especially southern California as it drains all the fresh mountain lakes. The south is in relatively good shape because it gets more than it fair share of rain. And the mississippi delta can probably grow enough food to feed the world, yet farmers are paid not to grow food or cotton to control pricing. By the way is the Great Lakes brackish or fresh?

William
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 04:52 pm
@RDRDRD1,
The Great Lakes are perfectly fresh water and the provinces and states bordering those lakes are alarmed at the prospect drought-striken parts of the US might seek to drain water from them. I believe they have binding, bilateral measures in place that prevent that sort of eventuality.

We know there is drought in your southeast and in the southwest. The Sierra Nevada snowpack that has traditionally fed California is imperilled by climate change which led to Secretary Chu's warning of the potential loss of California agriculture. Already some California farmers are finding it lucrative to sell their water quotas to municipalities rather than use the water for its intended purpose - irrigation.

But to answer your question about the global situation, the impacts are already being felt. Take China for example. China has some of the best climate scientists on the planet and they know what's coming their way due to the retreat of the Himalayan glaciers (India's in that same boat). China also has a serious water pollution problem and spreading desertification.

To backstop itself against anticipated declines in food production, China has taken to getting rights to some of the best farmland in east Africa from nations that already face internal food shortages. China grants foreign aid loans or builds an airport or a dam or a presidential palace and - voila - small farmers are conveniently displaced for their landholdings. Middle Eastern states, notably Kuwait and Dubai are doing much the same thing.

You might find it interesting to learn that the Bin Laden Group of Saudi Arabia is negotiating a 500,000 hectare, $4.3-billion rice growing deal in Indonesia. China, Kuwait and Qatar are vying to snag farmland in Cambodia. And this is just beginning.

I could write chapters on this but I won't bore you with the details. Within ten years, twenty at the outside, food issues will drive enormous global instability but I'm digressing from the point of this thread so I'll leave it at that.
0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 06:02 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;67844 wrote:
BrightNoon, your logic is nihilistic and, for an American, astonishingly unpatriotic. Future generations are hardly imaginary, that's merely a fairly crass device to shirk responsibility. Much of your country's greatness today, the same greatness that has been unappreciated and squandered, was built by generations past who did have a firm and abiding respect for posterity. They had a vision of their America in the future and they wanted to provide for those future generations, including your own. You owe a great deal to those generations before you and, like them, a great deal to those generations to follow you. How arrogant and selfish for you to think otherwise. What is the net sum of your existence, to simply consume? Look around you. Where has that mentality brought your nation?


We were talking about public policy, were we not? I am not suggesting that people should not plan and provide for the future and for their children, I'm suggesting that the government should not sacrafice those it actually represents for those that it will some day represent. There is an enormous difference. Long term national planning has been popular with every fascist and communist regime in the last century; it entails a certain mentality, i.e. that the nation as such has primacy, that improving the nation is the goal, whatever the cost to the people. This attitude is not compatable with individual liberty.

Quote:
Incorporating the needs of future generations is a cornerstone of sustainability in our current lives. If you don't want to live sustainably, what is your alternative? We are eating the seed corn BrightNoon.


I'm young, but you're naive. The 'green' movement gaining popularity is a fraud of epic proportions. Anthropogenic global warming is not occuring, at least not in any significant way. The real issue for sustainability (which doesn't recieve the government funding that global warming does, because it can't be turned into a source iof revenue) is resource depletion, especially oil and coal. Well, we can all pull together and build windmills and solar plants, right? No, there is NOTHING we could do that would allow modern society to remain at its current level of complexity, let alone allow to grow. The efficiency of all the alternative energy sources is horrendous compared to fossil fuels. The only hope of avoiding a real collapse of industrial society would be to build ALOT of nuclear plants very quickly, and yet, in the U.S. at least, there is no political will to do so, at all. Anyway, I digress, these are complex issues that I'm not getting into right now.

Quote:
I see that you're a student at a college in Pennsylvania which leads me to assume you're fairly young. I'm not saying that as a slight. I did my undergrad in your country back when most of your society was still nervously enthusiastic about the war of the day, Vietnam. I am now about to turn 60. You, BrightNoon, will see days ahead that I will fortunately manage to avoid. To shamelessly steal from Dennis Miller, I'm of the generation that snagged all the seats on the last chopper out of Saigon.

Tom Brokaw wrote of my parents' generation as "The Greatest Generation." They managed to thread their way through the Great Depression, world war, the shift from an agrarian to an industrial economy, the post-war boom and the Cold War. My generation could, perhaps, be described as "The Blessed Generation" for we pretty much had it all. You will not have it as good, not by any measure. In fact your generation will be confronted with challenges that may actually eclipse those endured by the Greatest Generation. In the process I expect your generation will shed the "greed is good/wealth is virtue" mentality my generation so shamefully instilled in you.

I don't mean to harp but I wish you would become more aware, acutely aware of the world you stand to inherit and allow that reality to inform your opinions. After all, you're the one who will have to live with them at the end of the day.


I agree. Posterity at the moment is not of great concern to me though, as it going to take a miracle for there to be much in the way of posterity.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 08:31 pm
@RDRDRD1,
Sorry, BrightNoon but I don't buy the flat earth denial claims. Let me explain why. If the anthropogenic global warming theory was, as you maintain, a "fraud of epic proportions," why then has the fossil fuel industry, with its enormous wealth and resources, not simply shown that? There are literally scores of billions of dollars at stake for them in this. Do you think they wouldn't reward someone, anyone capable of refuting these scientists with wealth in the magnitude of billions of dollars for their efforts? Of course they would, in a heartbeat.

But, carry this one step further. Look to what Big Oil and Big Coal did instead. They set out to replicate the denialist campaign waged earlier by Big Tobacco. They even used the same cast of scoundrels who, before becoming climate experts, had wielded their expertise to refute the link between cigarette smoking and cancer. Now what could they hope to gain from that campaign? Did they think that somehow they could succeed where RJ Reynolds had failed or were they instead hoping to achieve precisely what RJ Reynolds had achieved? You're a bright fellow so I know you'll find the answer quite obvious.

In my last career I was lucky enough to be able to do quite a bit of high-level, fraud litigation. I totally loved it even though it was enormously tedious and often very stressful, sometimes even dangerous. What was most engaging was the opportunity to get inside the mind of a very capable, veteran fraud artist. Before long you begin to identify (sometimes even admire) ingenious techniques and patterns employed by different people and constantly tailored to tightly fit differing circumstances in order to deceive, delude, obscure and divert attention.

When you watch a magician you're always looking for the giveaway, the trick. You know it's sleight of hand. The telling advantage the denialist wizards hold is that they're performing before an audience that wants to believe, that is quite prepared not to try to discover the illusion. They want to believe the white dove has actually come out of your hand. They're prepared to believe that no matter what anyone else says. When you combine a willingly and co-operatively seduced audience with a willingness to spread around great sums of money to just the right people, you can keep your game going for an awfully long time and, in this scenario, buying time is everything.

To your other point. You've repeatedly shown a strong aversion to the notion that today's generation should be called upon to "sacrifice" for a future generation. In a world where we've alreadly exceeded the carrying capacity of the planet, any reining in, any slowing down of consumption, would seem to fit your definition of "sacrifice." It strikes me that you have a curious appreciation of sacrifice.

BrightNoon, we are eating the seed corn. We truly are. Is it an unjustifiable interference with your rights as an individual to abate consumption in those circumstances? Are you an Easter Islander? Do you yearn for the fate of the Mayans?

My generation has roughly twenty to thirty years to go and, believe me, we are the Pros from Dover when it comes to consumption. As we get older and more brittle and atrophied, as we begin to cease contributing to our society, we actually consume more including more government resources. I suppose, therefore, you support us consuming everything we can get our knobby old fingers on even if it means leaving your generation, twenty years down the road, utterly skint. Well bless you my son and the very best of luck with that thinking.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 09:41 pm
@RDRDRD1,
I am a little confused about you comments on global warming. You ask why big oil didn't reveal the fraud, and then explain how they paid scientists to deny global warming; the two routes are rather in the same vein aren't they? When I say it's a fraud, I don't mean that there's some evidence of actual fraud, or even fudged numbers, there's nothing to reveal in that sense. It's matter of poor interpetation, flawed causality, biased sample selection and so on. Having scientists propose counter-explanations or theories, as big oil did for a while (now they seem to have gotten wise to the profit potential of the 'green revolution') would be the route one would take in order to reveal the truth. What is it that RJ Reynolds accomplished that the oil companies might have wanted to accomplish? It seems to me that big tobacco is having its **** handed it. In any case, my view is this. Those companies are not in the business of providing the world with a useful commodity, though they happen to be doing that now. They are in the business of making money; i.e. they will gladly go into the fraudulent, propoganda-fed 'green' business and earn rich government subsidies, knowing how rediculous it is. Returning to your point, it seems to me that BP, Exxon and the other big boys have pretty wholeheartedly accepted the new low carbon future that government has decided we need; they certainly spend quite a bit of money telling the public this on television. They know that oil is more or less peaking right now, and that, soon enough, they'll be out of business if they don't adapt; this is the ideal way of doing it, no R & D for an actually viable energy source and all the taxpayer financed perks they want. And moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if the big oil companies were excepted form some of the carbon taxes and regulations. As so often happens, government regulation assumed to be anti-business hurts most companies, but gives a competitive advantage to the select few that more or less own the government, because they alone are excepted via loopholes, which their lobbyists most likely had written in the legislation.

There is though most definitely an unsustainable level of consumption on this planet, completely unrelated to the imaginary global warming threat. Do I reccomend that people conserve? Sure. Will I accept government regulation of very personal behavior (How many razors I use a month? how many children I have?) in order to reduce consumption? Never. On its face that's unacceptable, but there is no doubt in my mind, nor should there be in the mind of anyone who's been paying attention, that the governmenbt would promptly abuse, terribly, those powers of intrusion to carry out all kinds of dystopian programs. I refuse to live in a planned society. I do not want my fellow citizens to be managed like livestock. Yes, that probably sounds radical, but its a slippery slope, and the wonderful government people we're talking about are largely gradualists (i.e. progressives, fabian socialists).

All that said, there are many things the government could do to reduce consumption without violating individuals' liberty; i.e. there are many things they could STOP doing. The most important reform, from which all others would flow, would be to abolish the Federal Reserve and put in place a non-inflationairy, commodity-back monetary system; then reduce government spending by an astonishingly huge proportion; then reduce taxes by the same proportion. To some extent, the resource crisis ('peak everything') we find ourselves in is natural and unavoidable. However, it will be obvious in a few decades that it was made exponentially worse by our monetary system and excessive government, which caused, and are now causing, massive misallocations of resources, which could otherwise have been invested in productive enterprises. We still would have arrived at peak oil, peak copper, etc., but the decline would have been gradual, and there would have been more time and resources to adapt. Now, we are facing a more likely than not hyperinflationairy blow-out as the fictions of the monetary regime become too much for reality to handle; i.e. WAY to much monetary inflation in a world of decreasing complexity, energy and goods. In other words, we could have, as a species, continued to grow (in complexity, not in terms of gross consumption), but now a collapse followed by decline or stagnation is likely. As you can see, I'm not advising that we just sit back, eat a hamburger and buy another Hummer.

If you like, check out this documentary on global warming
googevideo 'CBC-Global Warming Doomsday Called Off'
and/or 'Global Warming or Global Governance'

You'll find that the science is really quiet compellingly against anthropogenic global warming, and that Al Gore and his fellow deceivers have manipulated the evidence in a shockingly significant and obvious way.
0 Replies
 
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 09:59 pm
@RDRDRD1,
I agree with the OP. We have to take the future into account.
0 Replies
 
 

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