Sometimes i really feel like everyone is out for themselves

The problem is not everyone being out for themselves, but their self conception...If people really think of themselves as disconnected from humanity, having their own separate life, then they are criminals only waiting on opportunity for a crime...

Why not? I don't see anything wrong with that. (I didn't read your whole post.)

It largely depends, I would think, on whether when (if) they are "out for themselves" they harm others by taking what others are entitled to, and they are not. It is fine to be self-interested. That is how the world goes round. But not so fine to be selfish. That is an ethical no-no.

Outline why it is an ethical no-no.

I thought I already did. Because it takes from others what they are entitled to, and what the taker is not entitled to. Clearly, "selfish", like "murder", and unlike "self-interest" or "killing", have negative meanings. To call someone, "selfish" is to condemn him morally. It is to say that he has violated the rights of others in some way. That is how the word is used in English, isn't it?

Community is morality... No individual is moral, or ethical... The individual and individual self interest is how the whole of Western society has been divided into slaves and masters... The smart people form unions, or corportations, or join armies; and sacrifice a bit of their individualism for survival... The idiots stand alone...

Ken you are right but the hair is so fine between the two most still trip over it. Being "yourself" and having "self interest" is very difficult to define as to where one ends and the other begins for most. In that respect selfishness gets lost, and why most just ignore it in themselves. Rationalization is their scapegoat.

If selfishness is ethical to you and you truly believe it, no one will ever convince you otherwise. Life can be a cruel teacher and you will have to learn for yourself.

William

---------- Post added 04-27-2010 at 12:44 PM ----------



Great response Fido. We help each other find and understand what morality is. The problem is to combine the different communities. Hopefully that will end the need for armies and sacrifices and the wars between those different communities. Morality is truth and no army should be needed to defend it. My only problem with your statement is those "smart" people are the ones that start those wars and good people die in them. Perhaps there is a better word that could better be substituted like wise?

William

Being an idiot does not make one good... People suffering injustice often wish their injustice off on others in a national and international fashion... It has happened in our own time often, and as far back as the Pelloponesian war... It is one reason the rich of Greece hated the poor democrats, because the democrats, without money or propects, having political power pushed Athens into an international adventture costing the whole country its liberty and power...

Capitalism is natural evolution. The USA not ideal country? HA HA !
What country in the history - ideal? America not only country in the
World. Your nation very happy. You want more ! ? It is envy sin. Always
there is someone more richly. Always. If you begin to rule & correct
the USA and the World you will want большего. To become the genius.
To become God. Remember Nero.

Thats because to a greater or lesser extent they are. Survival and procreation are high on the list of evolutionary sucess skills.
The problem with socialism and with liberalism (everything must be fair and equal) is that they ignore this very fundamental reality of human nature.

What you miss is that survival has always been the result of a social effort, of people cooperating, and sticking together through thick and thin...Individualism is based upon technology or slaves... Primitives could simply not afford such nonsense and we are reaching the point where we cannot afford it as well... They had the advantage in that their forms were natural, based upon their natal relationships, and they all were what we would, in the true and proper use of the word, call a nation...

We do not do well alone, we do not breed well alone, and our children do not do well alone, and individualism is expected of most people and forced on many; and we suffer a lot of loneliness as a result... But you see, now that all the individualism has become too dear to afford, that people losing their houses are not for the most part, on the street, but living with parents or relatives, the way people have always done, and should always do... They just have to learn to sacrifice for their relationships, and mostly, what people have to sacrifice is a bit of themselves, their selfishness, their individualism...So they give up the easy chair and take the couch, and they find it does not kill them completely...

I actually completely agree. This is a sad but true fact. Now our goal is to overcome this.

Me too, me too. Advertising and hard sell-tactics are everywhere in a culture that praises wealth and possessions over family, intelligence, compassion and community ties. Nothing is "out of bounds", no hard sell is "too much" - the sky's the limit! And I spend a great deal of time erasing myself from their attention. So yea, I'm with you.



Yes it is everywhere. There's a belief system that says "keep the machine going", buy! buy! buy! And we swallow the psychology of it every time we see a commercial, notice a popup or are subconsciously attracted to a particularly attractive product package.

Captialism encourages consumption, but I wouldn't blame it exclusively since we see this sort of behavior (in all its manifestations) across the globe. A consumption culture thrives because its hits the human intellect "below the belt"; taking advantage of our desire for everything from calories to fertility to comfort and convenience all to make money. Many of these people; however, aren't necessarily old gray men smoking cigars in a closed, cherry-wood paneled room. Many are folks like you and me trying to also survive by making cash.

The thing is; while we can justly condemn greed and avarice, a society that doesn't consciously control the amount of advertising, fraud and wall street back-room "insurance" deals actually encourages its spread by its lack of action. In this environment, is it any wonder that some poor, underpaid person would just JUMP at the idea of owning their own home? It doesn't occur to them that they can't afford it when some mortgage company - who's just fine writing off the loss of a virtually inevitable foreclosure - tells them they can afford it.



This concerns me as well. What I find shocking about this is that this concentration has been continuing and building for a long_long_time. No one seems to care. Having wealthy people isn't, itself, a cancer to be cut out. The wealthy love spending their wealth, providing jobs and *consuming* a lot themselves. But the pendulum has swung so obscenely far that I believe most people see something fundamentally flawed with the situation, but are loathe to do anything about it since functionally there isn't anything that can be done.



Well that's an easy one; No. But flash that cash in front of someone - real time - and let them smell the currency; let them feel that anonymity of "getting away with it" and most americans would, I believe. This "Money Cures All - Guarantees Happiness!" mindset is part of what the United States is all about. No we can't change it, no it's not going to stop, "No", I've no idea where this will lead and "No", no one really cares. Yea, depressing...



You're probably right, and it's been changing quite a bit over the last 30 or so years. Dialup a recent documentary called "Food Inc."; it's outlines the result of years of research into how the manufacturing and farming industries in the U.S. work and how they've changed (both good and bad). It's a real eye opener. In any case...

I think our economy needs controls to stifle unfair business practices. But we have to be careful, control too much and you've simply transferred headaches. Control too little and its a "free for all" to see who can steal the most. What's more, the loudest voices in U.S. culture see any socialistic ideal as a boogieman that we ALL should defend against tooth and nail; this is short sighted since no single system strikes any kind of compromising balance in this complicated world. I will vote for those voices of reason that work for this balance between extreme economic philosophies of today's polemics.



I think it does, but I think it begets an emptiness when our whole lives revolve around stuff, things and comforts that strip us of life's satisfaction. Comfort ain't it folks - neither is convenience - you'll find happiness in neither. In any case, capitalism has a "free" element that must be nurtured - only with limits. At least that's where I'm at these days.



I believe they do know what they're doing, on some level. The thing is, business ethics is almost nonexistent today. The idiom "The Market will Work Itself Out" is quite dominant and basically says that if you can get away with it, so much the better! That if people get ripped off, it's because they're stupid and therefore deserve it; if you can't find a job, its because you're lazy and if you got taken in a scheme or scam, so much the better because apparently you don't deserve to have money.

Our priorities determine our morals. When our priorities are things, stuff, cash and the empty promises they bring, so follow our behaviors. Its depressing stuff; I know. But I stay involved, I vote and despite the onslaught of mcdonald's wrappers being thrown on my lawn I pick them up - I wave to me neighbors and in my little corner of the world try to make it the best I can. Lastly, I vote. Everyone should vote or they should be all be surgically altered to disallow any griping whatsoever. It's the one vehicle for change. Yes it's padded, pounded and perverted. But where I have the chance to make a difference, I will.

Apologies for the length of this; it's at the forefront of my thoughts these days.

Thanks

Yogi DMT
I think what you speak of roots in the duallity in humans, at the same time we can posess both love and hate, we can be excelent parents, at the same time go wage war and shoot the enemy in cold blood.

I don't cry each day over thousands of people who die of various reasons around the world, I sleep well at night, and I'm sure you do too.

You speak of buisness being corrupt, but so is everything in some way, because anything that involves humans isn't perfect, Imo it would be unrealistic to demand perfection when perfection is impossible to reach.

Yes I do agree with you and at the same time I agree with most of what everyone else has said on this issue also. I could be wrong but I doubt that there is anyone who has replied so far that is expecting perfection as I think they agree with you. "That agreement is" [perfection is impossible to reach]
If anyone thinks that he/she can reach perfection please speak up so that I do not continue thinking that I may be right.

I think that most of the repliers see something very wrong with the way we are going about things. What we need is some scientific proof of how the world's view of economics is is seriously flawed. It needs to be put in a format that most can understand. Maybe we need to spend more time in political philosophy.

You all may think I am crazy but I believe that thinkers like all of you could possibly be the ones to bring forth this scientific proof, if all of you continue to talk about the subject and point out all of the [facts] and record them.:detective: